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Old 09-02-2019, 08:09 AM   #1
Sambucus
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Hello All, noob question - Yet another tow vehicle question

Hello All,
I am moving this from the new user intro forum, because I never read instructions first. Sorry


My wife and I decided, now that I am on the glide path to retirement (6 years or so) to get an RV and camp with the grandchildren and snowbird later. I have heard the advice "buy your third trailer first".

I purchased a 2019 Silverado 1500 CC SB with a tow package, rated 9500 lbs towing.

We are zeroing in on a Passport GT 2950BH. We love the floor plane (as do the grandkids) and it looks to be the right feature/quality/price balance.

That said, I am an engineer and therefore I over-analyze everything. All the math says that this trailer will fit the truck and I should be fine, but never having owned a trailer, I am looking for some real world facts to confirm this. My research is all over the map, some say 6000 GVWR trailer for this truck to allow plenty of margin, (this trailer is 6145 dry, 7800 GVWR)

As I said, all the math works, but am I too close to max, realistically?

Thanks for any advice!

A few more details

5.3 liter with 3.42 (I think). Combined GVW 15000 lbs, truck GVWR is 7100. Max hitch is listed at 960. Max Payload is 2095

The trailer shows a hitch weight of 705

I have SOOO much to learn..

If I have to get a smaller trailer I am OK with it, but my wife really likes this one. The truck is 3 months old, so no upgrade there for awhile.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:50 AM   #2
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That 5.3 with 3:42 gears will struggle on any hills. It will pull the Passport but will require lots of patience when climbing or descending any significant grades. Again, get some LT tires on the truck and invest in a quality weight distribution hitch with sway control. Keystone has several similar but smaller models that will be lighter and may fit your truck better. The 240BH might be an option??
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:07 AM   #3
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Got It

Thanks for the tip on the tires. I will look at the smaller TT, just have to talk my family in to it (their idea of "roughing it" is very different from mine)
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:15 AM   #4
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There are a couple of considerations that don't seem to be included in your "numbers"...

First, the tongue weight of 704 pounds, is empty. You'll need to add about 50 pounds for a single battery, more if you intend to upgrade to dual batteries and you'll also need to add 40 pounds for propane. There are two 20 pound propane tanks on the trailer, but the specs only include the weight of the tanks, not the propane (the trailer leaves the factory with no propane.

It's usually "safest" and closer to accurate weights, to use the truck GVW, trailer GVW and estimate the tongue weight to be somewhere between 12-15% of the trailer GVW. You'll also need to add the weight of the hitch (usually around 100-150 pounds) to that calculation.

So, essentially, your "complete rig" would weigh around 7100 (truck) + 7800 (trailer) = 14900 total weight. Using the trailer GVW of 7800 pounds would give an estimated tongue weight somewhere between 936 and 1170 pounds (12-15% of GVW). plus the weight of the hitch assembly.

You didn't include the GCWR rating for your truck, so I'm not sure how close to the maximum total weight capacity for the rig, but I'd suspect you're going to be "very close" with a total estimated weight of 14900.
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:22 AM   #5
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That is correct GCVW is 15000, so this is like right at the limit.
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:33 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Sambucus View Post
That is correct GCVW is 15000, so this is like right at the limit.
All of the auto manufacturers use "sleight of hand" when calculating the maximum trailer weight allowable. On your truck, with a GCWR of 15000 pounds, the truck would have to be empty (or nearly so) to tow a 9000 pound trailer. If you add passengers and cargo/trailer tongue weight to get closer to the truck's GVW, that "allowable trailer weight" goes down "pound for pound"...

So, if you hitch up a 8000 pound trailer and add 2 grandkids, grandma and around 500 pounds of cargo weight, you'll be over the GCWR, even though the trailer is 1000 pounds lighter than the maximum.... Advertising magic is the only name I can put to the practice.
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:37 AM   #7
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Also as an engineer, and since you over-analyze everything, you should have known to buy the RV first and the TV to match the requirements second.
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:21 PM   #8
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Also, subtract from your payload numbers anything that will be carried in the truck, like people/pets, fuel, stuff carried in the bed...
Using the numbrs John gave you for the calcs is the realistic starting point.
IMO, a 150 size truck is a little on the lean side for a 29' trailer. You will likely find the towing experience "challenging" with that combo.
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Old 09-08-2019, 12:47 PM   #9
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Also, subtract from your payload numbers anything that will be carried in the truck, like people/pets, fuel, stuff carried in the bed...
Using the numbrs John gave you for the calcs is the realistic starting point.
IMO, a 150 size truck is a little on the lean side for a 29' trailer. You will likely find the towing experience "challenging" with that combo.
I think the 2950BH GT is closer to 34' than 28'.
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Old 09-08-2019, 03:55 PM   #10
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Also an ( non practicing ) engineer.
It really this easy to get a good estimate of the trailer you can bumper pull.
Open drivers door and get payload number.
From that number, subtract you, wife, dogs, kids, hitch, groceries, generator, cords, fuel for generator, belly button lint, everything in or on truck. Take the new number, and divide by .13. This will be the approximate MAX LOADED weight of a trailer you can attach to your truck without busting the payload number. Divide by .18 if you start looking at “ half ton towable” fifth wheels.
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Sambucus View Post
Hello All,
I am moving this from the new user intro forum, because I never read instructions first. Sorry


My wife and I decided, now that I am on the glide path to retirement (6 years or so) to get an RV and camp with the grandchildren and snowbird later. I have heard the advice "buy your third trailer first".

I purchased a 2019 Silverado 1500 CC SB with a tow package, rated 9500 lbs towing.

We are zeroing in on a Passport GT 2950BH. We love the floor plane (as do the grandkids) and it looks to be the right feature/quality/price balance.

That said, I am an engineer and therefore I over-analyze everything. All the math says that this trailer will fit the truck and I should be fine, but never having owned a trailer, I am looking for some real world facts to confirm this. My research is all over the map, some say 6000 GVWR trailer for this truck to allow plenty of margin, (this trailer is 6145 dry, 7800 GVWR)

As I said, all the math works, but am I too close to max, realistically?

Thanks for any advice!

A few more details

5.3 liter with 3.42 (I think). Combined GVW 15000 lbs, truck GVWR is 7100. Max hitch is listed at 960. Max Payload is 2095

The trailer shows a hitch weight of 705

I have SOOO much to learn..

If I have to get a smaller trailer I am OK with it, but my wife really likes this one. The truck is 3 months old, so no upgrade there for awhile.

First off, completely, totally forget the "9500 lb. tow rating". It is meaningless and just a sales gimmick to lead folks to buy a truck not suited to the job at hand.

Some other thoughts; your receiver max. weight is listed as 960lbs. A 7800 lb. trailer (and you will get there trying to take grandkids and have fun) at 15% tongue weight is 1170lbs. Now add the 100-150 lbs. for the wdh/sway control required and you can see you have a problem. I used the 15%, which is generally considered max because you never know how the trailer is laid out or how you will load. At 12% (which I run) it would be 936; still over the receiver rating with the hitch.

The old saying of "buying your 3rd trailer first" considers that you have bought enough TV for said "3rd trailer", not your 1st truck and strap your 3rd upgraded trailer to it.

There ARE lots of things to consider when attempting to throw a larger trailer on the back of a truck; particularly a 1/2 ton. Here is a response I made in the last couple of days to another person asking about the same thing you are:

"The hitch will help but always bear in mind that the 1/2 ton is meant primarily as a comfortable grocery getter and "light" hauler of some 2x4s, plywood, washing machine etc. Not a lot of weight strapped on the back of the frame that subjects the truck to all kinds of pushes, pulls, shoves and twists. The primary purpose listed above is why they come with light duty springs, shocks, tires, ring and pinon, axles, u joints etc. etc.

Replacing the WDH/sway is a start but researching your vehicle I didn't see any option for a tire upgrade; they are all P rated tires (passenger). That in and of itself will allow the push/pull because the softer sidewalls flex and allow the truck to "slide" left and right when subjected to the push/pull of trucks, wind etc. They need to be LTs. Springs are softer so they will allow the same thing. It doesn't make a lot of sense to try to replace the springs on a new truck but I would put in a set of air bags. It won't increase the payload but it will "stiffen" the movement of the body/axle and minimize just one more weak spot. The shocks are "soft" as well so going to the grocery store is "comfortable" - not stiff to minimize body roll and sway. Replace them with a heavy duty shock; I use/used Bilsteins."

As an additional point: if you are going to be taking grandkids with you, you want to err on the side of safety, not be "at the max". To me that means a reserve cushion of 10-15% below your max ratings on everything....payload, gvw, gawr, gcvwr etc. Look at ALL of them because they all count.
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:43 PM   #12
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Old 09-08-2019, 08:01 AM   #13
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Real-world weight

Reading through the posts, I didn't see anyone mention actually weighing your new truck. My advice is to fill the gas tank, load the truck up with DW, grandkids, camping gear, etc. Take it to a public scale and weigh the front axle, both axles, and rear axle. This will give you a real-world starting point to see how much travel trailer your truck can safely pull. Typically our trucks run out of GCWR (truck load carrying capacity) long before they hit the GCVWR (max combined weight of truck and trailer). Others here have talked about trailer hitch,equalizer bars, and trailer tongue weight. I would estimate that actual trailer tongue weight is 50% higher than the manufacturer specifies, due to batteries, propane, stuff in the storage compartment, clothes in the closets, stuff under the bed, etc., etc.

Good luck in your search and safe travels!
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Old 09-08-2019, 09:44 AM   #14
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hello all, noob question

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickReichert View Post
Reading through the posts, I didn't see anyone mention actually weighing your new truck. My advice is to fill the gas tank, load the truck up with DW, grandkids, camping gear, etc. Take it to a public scale and weigh the front axle, both axles, and rear axle. This will give you a real-world starting point to see how much travel trailer your truck can safely pull. Typically our trucks run out of GCWR (truck load carrying capacity) long before they hit the GCVWR (max combined weight of truck and trailer). Others here have talked about trailer hitch,equalizer bars, and trailer tongue weight. I would estimate that actual trailer tongue weight is 50% higher than the manufacturer specifies, due to batteries, propane, stuff in the storage compartment, clothes in the closets, stuff under the bed, etc., etc.

Good luck in your search and safe travels!
If you read the original post, this newbie has purchased his vehicle and while he has narrowed down his trailer, he is concerned that it might not be within his tow vehicle towing specs and is asking our opinion. It is pretty hard to do a real world test with a trailer he does not have. I am just saying.
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Old 09-08-2019, 10:17 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by vancouverbrian View Post
If you read the original post, this newbie has purchased his vehicle and while he has narrowed down his trailer, he is concerned that it might not be within his tow vehicle towing specs and is asking our opinion. It is pretty hard to do a real world test with a trailer he does not have. I am just saying.
And if you read my post, I'm suggesting that he weigh his fully-loaded truck. :-)
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:54 PM   #16
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Since everyone is on the subject of towing, I thought I would submit my specs for opinion...


I have a 2016 F150 4x4 crew cab with 3.73 axle ratio. The limits are:
GVWR: 6350
GCVWR: 12,200
Payload: 1550
Towing capacity: 7100


I'm looking at a travel trailer that is about 4500 dry weight, and want to account for putting about 1300 lbs of stuff in it for a total of 5800 lbs. Since the specs for the trailer dry give a hitch weight of about 450 lbs, it seems to be right at 10%, giving me a new loaded hitch weight of 580 pounds. So...


For me, my wife, daughter, and miscellaneous I'm allocating: 600 lbs
Hitch weight: 580 lbs
Weight dist hitch: 100 lbs
Total payload: 1280 lbs (270 lbs to spare)


Trailer is 5800 lbs with a 7100 lbs capacity, so I'm only using about 82% of capacity.


And, I should be well under my GCVWR.


I spoke to the mechanics at my local ford dealer about this, and they said the truck should have no problem and that ford is very conservative with its posted numbers because they don't want a lawsuit. The mechanics actually said my truck should tow 9000 lbs no problem. I tend to have faith in these guys because I have been using this dealership for all my truck needs and these are the mechanics that have been there for years and haven't fed me BS before.


So, opinions? Does this setup look OK, or do we have a problem? I'm a noob, too, and want to learn...
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:25 PM   #17
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.... Since the specs for the trailer dry give a hitch weight of about 450 lbs, it seems to be right at 10%, giving me a new loaded hitch weight of 580 pounds. So...
There's a little bit of "what they don't tell you" involved in Keystone's advertising and what you're interpreting....

The dry hitch weight does not include propane (only the tanks are weighed as it leaves the factory) and there is no battery included in that 450 pound tongue weight. So, in reality, add 60 pounds for propane (2x30 pound tanks) and 50 pounds for the battery and box. That will add 110 pounds to the tongue weight making it 560 (empty). 560 is 12.5% of 4500, so that's going to affect your "final numbers crunch" a bit.

I prefer to "err on the side of caution" so I always suggest that the tongue weight will be somewhere between 11-15% of the total trailer weight. Add the hitch weight to that to get the estimated weight that's going to be on your truck's receiver. Why 11-15%? every rig will tow differently based on multiple factors ranging from distance from the rear axle to the hitch ball, distance from the hitch ball to the trailer axles, height of the hitch, wheelbase of the tow vehicle, axle spread distance on the trailer to name a few things that are unique to each rig and different from rig to rig. So, a trailer that tows well at 11% behind a GM 1500 may to better at 12% behind a GM 2500 and may not tow well until the cargo is adjusted to get 14% behind a RAM and it may not tow well until 15 or 16% behind a short wheelbase F150 but tows superbly at 10% behind a long wheelbase F150.... Each rig has its unique "blend" to make it tow the best. So, it's better to "estimate the range and try to stay within the highest and lowest so you have some flexibility when you finally hitch your rig and start adjusting for the best tow conditions.... I hope that makes some sense.....
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:11 PM   #18
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FordFella;

Don't go with what you "think" you'll have; go with the gvw of the trailer. Why? You are carrying a wife and daughter...going "light" will quickly go away unless the only thing you ever do is throw an armful of stuff in on Friday evening and come back Sunday afternoon.

For the truck you allocate 600lbs. for you, DW and daughter AND all the misc? After you put in the bbq pit, tables, jacks, tools, bicycle, toys etc.....whoops! That alone just ate up the 600lbs +. Or, leave DW, daughter, toys or some other things that you really wanted to have to enjoy camping - btdt. Little one ain't gonna be happy because dad leaves all her stuff at home because..."we can't carry it". btdt too.

7100gvw on the trailer would give you 852 on the tongue (12%)...real life. Add hitch - 125 = 977. Yes, I know you won't "go there", but, most do. Look at THAT number.

You have a 2016 Ford F150, Crew Cab 4x4... My last Ram 1500 CC 4x4 weighed in right at 5300 lbs. Yours will be close - maybe a little less, but close. Take that then your gvw of 6350 which would leave you a REAL payload of 1050. The numbers you posted makes your truck weight come in at 4800...even. I'm highly skeptical of that.

You are taking the route so many do; rationalize the lightest weights you can imagine to make the truck work. Buy it, it isn't pleasant...in fact dangerous, figure a way to get bigger truck (more debt) and keep trying to make it work.

IMO you are doing a super, smart thing to ask questions about a combo BEFORE you've dug the hole - Congrats! The numbers can be confusing, aggravating and disappointing if you have preconceived ideas of what you want. They are usually an eye opener.

I would highly suggest, particularly with a kiddo, that you 1) only consider the gvw of anything you look at, 2) figure no less than 12% for tongue weight for a bumper pull, 3) know that with a growing child anything you think of now is only going to get bigger and heavier, 4) always leave a minimum 10% cushion between your actual load and your max load limits and 5) ALWAYS remember that you, dad, are the one tasked with the safety of mom and your child. With those things in mind you should always err on the side of safety. Oh, and that "towing capacity" number you posted? That's fairyland stuff so never think of it again.

I hope you find the perfect match for the family. My post is meant to point out some things, not discourage you. You have done one of the most important things you could do by asking first. There are many, many knowledgeable, long time towing folks on here that are willing, and want, to help you find the perfect answer for you and your family.
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Old 09-10-2019, 05:24 PM   #19
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"I spoke to the mechanics at my local ford dealer about this, and they said the truck should have no problem and that ford is very conservative with its posted numbers because they don't want a lawsuit. The mechanics actually said my truck should tow 9000 lbs no problem. I tend to have faith in these guys because I have been using this dealership for all my truck needs and these are the mechanics that have been there for years and haven't fed me BS before."


FordFella, I'm sorry but I forgot to address this portion of your post.

I've been in lots of shops, known lots of mechanics, and, those that I know/knew and trust(ed) knew lots of things I needed them to know about engine/drivetrain/tranny etc.

I suspect that those "experts" when questioned about their experience of "towing"; what trailer, what size, how heavy, towed with what, weights etc. - that will leave about 90% of them out of the equation. Opinions from a "trusted" mechanic if truck A can pull 9000 lbs.? They go by Ford's publications stating max tow weight...they know nothing else. So, IMO, like the stated "max tow rating" - forget that conversation and focus on real life.
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Old 09-02-2019, 02:36 PM   #20
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Sourdough, thank you for the excellent advice. You are quite correct, of course
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