2011 Ford DEF Pump

[geo]

Just learned today, if you have a 2011 Ford F-series diesel, you may soon get to see a "Check Engine Light" error. My "Check Engine Light" came on at around 13950 miles (Flyguy - that would be 22500 km for our Canadian friends! ). Ford Dealer tested it three times, talked with the Ford engineers, etc., and decided that it was a DEF Pump sensor problem.

Today, I both found out from Ford and saw in the www.PowerStroke.org forum that there is a problem with the DEF pump. The DEF pump manufacturer has recalled all the DEF pumps - so Ford and whoever else does not have any! Now, my dealer pulled the DEF fluid injector line and measured the DEF fluid output from the pump, and it is exactly at specifications. However, the pump sensor is sending either a "p2048" or a "p205c" code to the truck's computer, so the engine light comes on.

Ford has pulled all DEF pumps and does not have a replacement yet. The manufacturer has told Ford that it will be late February before the new "sensor corrected" pumps will ship.

Ron

[Jim W]

Hey sorry to hear about your issue. I know it will take a year or two to get everything running like it should, new technology takes time.


By the way, Thank you oh mighty "CUMMINS" no Urea or those type of issues on the pick-up truck 6.7L engine.

Sorry, I had to say it.

Jim

[geo]

Jim -

That's OK. The DEF allows the new diesels to be more "green" - ties up the NOx coming out of the tailpipe. Even if I am a geo-type, the environment has mattered to me a long time even before it was "popular". Probably because my studies have allowed me to understand Earth's past environments - most not very favorable to RVers!

You have a great TV with a great engine. I have a new engine design with new technology - in computers we call that "bleeding edge technology". Time will come both of our TVs must be replaced. The "bleeding edge technology" is just preparing the way. I hear Dodge and others will introduce DEF next year.

The purpose of my post was to let those other 2011 F-series owners, including the administrator of this forum, know that they might have a problem in the next few weeks. If they don't have a problem, they will have a recall. Not all the Ford dealers have heard of this problem or realize it yet. An informed public is valuable asset.

I will say that Ford is much more receptive to direct customer support than Keystone seems to be.

Ron

[Jim W]

Geo,
The 6.7L was emission compliant in Jan 07, to meet the 2010 emission rules set forth by the EPA. The way Cummins choose to go was without the use of UREA in the pick-up truck. The duty cycle set forth by the EPA allowed the truck to get by without the use of UREA and this added expense.
Being a retired engineer that was involved on the fringes of compliant testing required by the EPA for emission comliance. I do not think Cummins will be going to UREA next year do to the testing required. If they did they would need to spend millions of dollars on retesting and certifying the engine for pick-up duty use. When the engine already meets the lastest emission rules for diesel engines in pick-up trucks.
The C&C model of the Dodge truck with the 6.7L engine already uses the UREA and has been for awhile. This is do to a different duty cycle that has been established for the C&C model of truck.

Just my $0.02
Jim

Jim

[tampacamper]

Thanks Ron, Knock on wood or a Dodge owners head. Mine has been ok!!

J/K Jim

[BStiers]

The new stuff is tough. I have a 2011 Chevy 3500 Dually. My truck has 1200 yes 1200 miles on it and I have had the check engine light come on twice for turbo boost codes. I have not even towed the Fuzion with it yet. So we will see.

Bryan

[geo]

Jim, you are mostly correct. However, it is not the Cummins 6.7L diesel engine that conforms to the 2010 EPA guidelines, it is the 6.7 diesel engine plus its associated exhaust system. I did check with my source, and yes - only the C&C models are using DEF technology. And yes, the Cummins 6.7L with associated exhaust system was 2010 EPA compliant starting with the 2007 model.

However the way Cummins chose to be compliant was using a combination of Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) plus a special adsorber catalyst material. This adsorber catalyst "soaks up" the NOx molecules and allows them to break down into nitrogen and water before they leave the tailpipe. Cummins and Chrysler Dodge are the only company utilizing this technology.

Now, the reason this technology is not used in the C&C/Chassis Cab is because the NOx adsorber utilizes rare earth metals. Until recently (when new rare earth deposits were discovered in Mainland China) the prices of this rare earth were very high. Utilizing this technology on larger trucks would have been cost prohibitive. Still, the price of rare earths containing rhodium and palladium is high - just not sky high.

I have not heard of any replacement costs for the adsorber unit. I would guess that it would be pricey. Since the advanced batteries of electric cars utilize these same rare earth metals, the battery manufacturers compete for the rare earth elements with the Cummins exhaust and other industries. (Note - this is what makes electric cars "un-Earth" friendly. Batteries need to be replaced every 3 to 5 years - at a price!)

Commencing with the 2011 model, Ford has engineered and manufactured its own diesel engine. Ford is no longer utilizing the International Navstar diesel engines that have proved to be troublesome over the past decade.

Overall, considering mining, manufacturing, "impact upon Earth's resources", replacement costs, etc., DEF is a less expensive alternative (not "better") even at the Tow Vehicle level. Yes, DEF does require more "attention" - you have to fill the tank. Yes, there still is the Exhaust Gas Recirculation unit before the DEF Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) unit. The SCR is simply a porous ceramic filter upon which a zeolite substrate has been precipitated. In Ford's case, iron and copper are precipitated upon the zeolite. This SCR is the catalyst for the DEF (ammonia and water) to react with the NOx to produce only nitrogen gas and water vapor. (Zeolites are some of the most common minerals in the Earth's subsurface. Their primary use is laundry detergent.)

So, easily obtained, inexpensive, common materials are used in the exhaust technology of a DEF system. Now, this does not mean that there are not some concerns. There have been some who have suggested that copper zeolites in DEF systems generate dioxins. I understand that there are some studies being performed to confirm or disprove these concerns. Ford obviously decided to "hedge their bets" in utilizing iron-copper zeolites. Iron (ferrous) zeolites are not as active of a catalyst as copper zeolites.

But with any new models and technologies, there will be those "bleeding edge" problems. The post was to "help" those other forum members who have and will purchase a 2011 Ford F-series diesel. However, I do owe you a heartfelt "thank you" for allowing me to explain the DEF technology a little further. My observation, so far, is that Ford dealer service managers are still learning about the new F-series diesels and are finding it challenging to combine their working and personal lives with studying about a new technology of pickup.

Again, an informed public is a valued asset.

Ron

[kyaber]

Thanks for the info, knew the DEF was need to help with emisions, just not what it did. Once again thanks for the info

[geo]

Just to let the 2011 Ford Diesel TV owners know . . .

The new replacement DEF pumps are now being delivered to dealers. They started arriving yesterday in North Texas, so if they aren't there, they will be at a dealer near you very soon.

Now, the question arises: Will Ford issue a recall or will Ford wait until each individual pump starts throwing codes to the computer? Stay tuned . . .

Ron