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Old 10-25-2016, 08:04 PM   #21
RGene7001
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Re: TV is a SUV

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Originally Posted by CaptnJohn View Post
I'm still wondering about "professionally modified and reinforced to make it able to transfer weight distributing forces to the unibody and to boost its capacity to up to 1,200 lb.".
Something like this... But mine is way more beautiful, 100% invisible, I dont have urea tank
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:12 AM   #22
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Re: TV is a SUV

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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I've driven SUVs for the last 30 years or so. I can safely say that NONE (and there have been dozens) of them are cut out to tow a very big trailer. You say you don't have white knuckles? Drop your trailer on the back of a 3/4 or one ton and pull it down the highway. You will find that you are actually living with white knuckles but think it's normal. Anyway, to each his own and I wish you, and all of us, safe travels.
I'm not towing a big trailer. Passport 195RB.
We never dry camp so the fresh water tank is empty. I drain gray and black water tanks when leaving.
Trailer weight is 3710 plus extras and food and cloths etc I'm still way under the Explorer's 5000 lbs and 500 lbs tongue limits.
The SUV weighs 4800 lbs, way more than the TT. It came with HD suspension, Tow Mode and anti-sway from the factory. Pre wired with 7 pin, hitch and brake control. 365 HP and 350 torques, more with premium gas.
With a Husky TS hitch the TT pulls straight and easy. The hills of Western PA and NY are no problem.

I don't doubt that I made the right choice, I was just curious why others thought different.
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Old 10-26-2016, 10:05 AM   #23
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Re: TV is a SUV

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I'm not towing a big trailer. Passport 195RB.
We never dry camp so the fresh water tank is empty. I drain gray and black water tanks when leaving.
Trailer weight is 3710 plus extras and food and cloths etc I'm still way under the Explorer's 5000 lbs and 500 lbs tongue limits.
The SUV weighs 4800 lbs, way more than the TT. It came with HD suspension, Tow Mode and anti-sway from the factory. Pre wired with 7 pin, hitch and brake control. 365 HP and 350 torques, more with premium gas.
With a Husky TS hitch the TT pulls straight and easy. The hills of Western PA and NY are no problem.

I don't doubt that I made the right choice, I was just curious why others thought different.
Not to sound "argumentative", but the empty tongue weight of the 195RB is listed at 405 pounds, add 40 pounds of propane, a 50 pound battery and box, hang a 100 pound WD hitch onto the receiver of your Explorer and you're over that 500 pound "max tongue weight" before you add any cargo to your trailer. I don't think anyone here has a "belief" that you're going to change your mind, so tow whatever you want with whatever you choose, but don't "speculate the numbers" to make it seem like you're "OK" when the only way to know for sure if you're under your max is to tow your rig to a certified scale and see what the weight ticket actually shows. I'd make an "experienced, distance related guess" that when you add "camping gear", you're approaching 600 - 700 pounds of weight on your 2" receiver.

The HP/torque, added accessories and number of pins in the umbilical don't make a TV/trailer setup "safer" or "more dangerous". No doubt your Explorer is capable of "pulling" your trailer. Those features don't make it any safer or more capable of "towing". They just make "forward momentum" less "painful".

As an anecdotal comparison, just because a Cessna 172 wing is "capable" of 4G's and 350 KIAS doesn't mean that you can install a jet engine and make it a "high speed aerobatic craft".....
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Old 10-26-2016, 10:18 AM   #24
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Re: TV is a SUV

All vehicles have their limits and pickups have bigger limits than SUVs and real bigger limits if you go to a HD truck for RV towing.
If I posted I tow a 5th wheel trailer with a 4,000 pin wt. and trailer wt. at 20,000 lbs scale wt. And my vehicle said payload max wt. is 3,000 and trailer is 16,000 lb max towing.(Just made up numbers to make a point) I hope everyone would say, hey your over weight and trying to make your vehicle do what the engineers never built it for. If my numbers were real I have no doubt I could find someone out there that says they do it. That still don't make it right.
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Old 10-26-2016, 12:54 PM   #25
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Re: TV is a SUV

"As an anecdotal comparison, just because a Cessna 172 wing is "capable" of 4G's and 350 KIAS doesn't mean that you can install a jet engine and make it a "high speed aerobatic craft"..."

Not even close to those G's and that speed.

...and not even Bob Hoover (RIP) could do that in a 172.
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Old 10-26-2016, 02:34 PM   #26
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Re: TV is a SUV

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"As an anecdotal comparison, just because a Cessna 172 wing is "capable" of 4G's and 350 KIAS doesn't mean that you can install a jet engine and make it a "high speed aerobatic craft"..."

Not even close to those G's and that speed.

...and not even Bob Hoover (RIP) could do that in a 172.
My point exactly. "somebody/somewhere" managed to survive it, but everyone else had problems even getting close. That means (I suppose) it's "possible but not probable".... sort of like believing the Keystone website's tongue weight is what you'll have when you tow to your "regular campground".....

Speaking of Bob Hoover, he died yesterday at age 94. I still "marvel" at how he managed to keep his license through all his "stunts" and "thrills" without the FAA grounding him. I guess once you're a "legend" the "regulators" look the other way ..... LOL
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Old 10-26-2016, 03:26 PM   #27
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Re: TV is a SUV

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My point exactly. "somebody/somewhere" managed to survive it, but everyone else had problems even getting close. That means (I suppose) it's "possible but not probable".... sort of like believing the Keystone website's tongue weight is what you'll have when you tow to your "regular campground".....

Speaking of Bob Hoover, he died yesterday at age 94. I still "marvel" at how he managed to keep his license through all his "stunts" and "thrills" without the FAA grounding him. I guess once you're a "legend" the "regulators" look the other way ..... LOL
The feds actually took his medical away when he was 72 because they thought he lacked awareness. The joke was on them, of course.

I met the gentleman legend at the Reno Air Races Sept 2015 when he signed my copy of his book "Forever Flying". What an honor to meet the guy Jimmy Doolittle described as "the best stick and rudder pilot who ever lived".
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Old 10-26-2016, 03:52 PM   #28
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Re: TV is a SUV

Not that it is worth anything let me add my experience to the SUV debate. We too have a 23RB that I had convinced my self that my diesel Grand Cherokee would be sufficirent as a tow vehicle. Towed home from the dealer with nothing loaded. Towed like a dream. Loaded it up the following weekend and headed out for the May 2-4. I had convinced myself I was safe and good to go. Made it to the camp site, had a great weekend. Jeep towed like a dream with power to spare. On the way home coming out of a forested area we took a cross wind that litterally moved the Jeep and the trailer, as one, across the centre line. I bought a truck the next day. I've read most of the posts here but I don't recall anyone touching on the short wheel base issues with SUV as compared to pick up trucks. My weights were all in accordance with the TV ratings but the short wheel base made it unsuitable as a tow vehicle.
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Old 10-26-2016, 04:20 PM   #29
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Re: TV is a SUV

I met him at Edwards AFB in the early 70's. He was the guest speaker at a Flight Test Center dining out. He talked about his "escape from Germany" during WW2. One can always "identify a real fighter pilot" by their inability to talk without both hands being in close formation as they describe most anything. He was quite the character and thoroughly enjoyed his F106 back seat "orientation flight" provided by the NASA team. It was most entertaining to listen to the intercom tapes after the flight. He did more "instructing" than "orienting" from wheels up to "nose gear steering" I believe it was Buzz Aldrin (who at that time, was the commander of the USAF Test Pilot School) in the front seat of that "six" and Hoover earned his Mach 2 pin on that flight.
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Old 10-26-2016, 04:34 PM   #30
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Re: TV is a SUV

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Not that it is worth anything let me add my experience to the SUV debate. We too have a 23RB that I had convinced my self that my diesel Grand Cherokee would be sufficirent as a tow vehicle. Towed home from the dealer with nothing loaded. Towed like a dream. Loaded it up the following weekend and headed out for the May 2-4. I had convinced myself I was safe and good to go. Made it to the camp site, had a great weekend. Jeep towed like a dream with power to spare. On the way home coming out of a forested area we took a cross wind that litterally moved the Jeep and the trailer, as one, across the centre line. I bought a truck the next day. I've read most of the posts here but I don't recall anyone touching on the short wheel base issues with SUV as compared to pick up trucks. My weights were all in accordance with the TV ratings but the short wheel base made it unsuitable as a tow vehicle.
You make a great point. I believe it has been discussed in the past on this forum but it needs to be brought up again. That is one of the main reasons the SUV is not an ideal TV and can cause you real grief, real fast.
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Old 10-26-2016, 04:55 PM   #31
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Re: TV is a SUV

Post #3 I did list wheel base length and width as a reason pickups tow better than SUVs. And until you go from one to the other most likely do not know how much difference it can and will make.
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Old 10-26-2016, 06:59 PM   #32
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Re: TV is a SUV

Ib
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Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia View Post
Post #3 I did list wheel base length and width as a reason pickups tow better than SUVs. And until you go from one to the other most likely do not know how much difference it can and will make.
... and shortened rear overhang in some SUVs compared to "average" 50 inch puckup truck rear overhang can make these SUVs really great TV- IF THEY ARE SET UP CORRECTLY. For example, my ML with wheelbase of 114.7 and rear overhang of just 35 inches (measured from rear axle to the end of hitch receiver tube) is geometrically equivalent to a pickup truck with wheelbase of about 163 inches, and it behaves on the road exactly this way. This is not a Ford Bronco or old Cherokee. However, it is very easy to destroy towing performance of such SUV by attaching bulky adjustable hitch head with long towbar, so the short rear overhang gets extended beyond what is absolutely necessary.
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:31 PM   #33
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Re: TV is a SUV

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I'm not towing a big trailer. Passport 195RB.
We never dry camp so the fresh water tank is empty. I drain gray and black water tanks when leaving.
Trailer weight is 3710 plus extras and food and cloths etc I'm still way under the Explorer's 5000 lbs and 500 lbs tongue limits.
The SUV weighs 4800 lbs, way more than the TT. It came with HD suspension, Tow Mode and anti-sway from the factory. Pre wired with 7 pin, hitch and brake control. 365 HP and 350 torques, more with premium gas.
With a Husky TS hitch the TT pulls straight and easy. The hills of Western PA and NY are no problem.

I don't doubt that I made the right choice, I was just curious why others thought different.
You're driving a 2016 Explorer if I recall. I drive a 2017. I wouldn't pull the trailer you talk about for love or money with my Explorer. Why? It is not an adequate TV. Why do I know that? I've pulled all kinds of trailers with all kinds of vehicles. A midsize SUV like the Explorer is adequate for a small flat bed trailer....not an fair sized RV. I don't recall where you're from but I can tell you flat out that if you are pulling your RV down the road in TX driving 60 mph and a semi comes by you at 80-85 mph (normal speed limit is 75 - many semis run the speeds I mentioned all the time) your little SUV will be sucked into the side of the truck if you don't see it, OR, you will be spending minutes watching him approach, grabbing the wheel, then doing everything you can do not to be sucked in. Not the way it should be.

You made the right choice for you as you say.....you just don't know what a true effortless towing experience is.
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Old 10-26-2016, 07:39 PM   #34
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Re: TV is a SUV

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I met him at Edwards AFB in the early 70's. He was the guest speaker at a Flight Test Center dining out. He talked about his "escape from Germany" during WW2. One can always "identify a real fighter pilot" by their inability to talk without both hands being in close formation as they describe most anything. He was quite the character and thoroughly enjoyed his F106 back seat "orientation flight" provided by the NASA team. It was most entertaining to listen to the intercom tapes after the flight. He did more "instructing" than "orienting" from wheels up to "nose gear steering" I believe it was Buzz Aldrin (who at that time, was the commander of the USAF Test Pilot School) in the front seat of that "six" and Hoover earned his Mach 2 pin on that flight.
Aldrin is an interesting guy who was accepted to the third astronaut class in 1963 without having been a test pilot (a first). He went to the moon in 1969 where he was the first to urinate and have communion on the moon. When retiring from NASA in 1971, he was assigned as Commander of the USAF Test Pilot School before retiring from the Air Force less than a year later.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:06 PM   #35
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Re: TV is a SUV

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Ib

... and shortened rear overhang in some SUVs compared to "average" 50 inch puckup truck rear overhang can make these SUVs really great TV- IF THEY ARE SET UP CORRECTLY. For example, my ML with wheelbase of 114.7 and rear overhang of just 35 inches (measured from rear axle to the end of hitch receiver tube) is geometrically equivalent to a pickup truck with wheelbase of about 163 inches, and it behaves on the road exactly this way. This is not a Ford Bronco or old Cherokee. However, it is very easy to destroy towing performance of such SUV by attaching bulky adjustable hitch head with long towbar, so the short rear overhang gets extended beyond what is absolutely necessary.
I think we've beat this thing to death. You are very obviously enamored of your ML pulling most anything despite what is rated for. That is your decision. When you get to the point of trying to explain this or that so that you think that you are beyond factory specs....you are trying to convince yourself. Your mods, from what I see, did not change axles, gearing, springs all around etc. You seem to now have a 1000 lb. hitch with a factory hitch limit of 500. I point these things out because, 1) IMO you have made a bad decision. You said you don't have the money to buy a new tow vehicle just for the trailer....that does not make it right to cut safety corners, and 2) your comments will lead others, new to towing, to make bad decisions.

Lots of folks come to this site looking for good, sensible information on how to tow. You've taken a vehicle, not suitable for towing RVs IMO (I've driven them - a 350? my drive in it said it was very weak) and then made your mods. In the end you are advocating that folks can just grab an inadequate SUV and it's OK (if they make some "vague" modifications that virtually all unknowledgeable members will have no idea of.

I have nothing to grind about what you are doing. You just have to understand that your assertions, wrongly, can hurt someone.

Can you pull a fair sized RV with an SUV like a Durango, ML, JGC,or the like? It will "pull" it, it can't control it, nor is it safe...IMO.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:09 PM   #36
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Re: TV is a SUV

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You're driving a 2016 Explorer if I recall. I drive a 2017. I wouldn't pull the trailer you talk about for love or money with my Explorer. Why? It is not an adequate TV. Why do I know that? I've pulled all kinds of trailers with all kinds of vehicles. A midsize SUV like the Explorer is adequate for a small flat bed trailer....not an fair sized RV. I don't recall where you're from but I can tell you flat out that if you are pulling your RV down the road in TX driving 60 mph and a semi comes by you at 80-85 mph (normal speed limit is 75 - many semis run the speeds I mentioned all the time) your little SUV will be sucked into the side of the truck if you don't see it, OR, you will be spending minutes watching him approach, grabbing the wheel, then doing everything you can do not to be sucked in. Not the way it should be.

You made the right choice for you as you say.....you just don't know what a true effortless towing experience is.
Semis, as well as "colleagues" with motorhomes or diesel duallies with fifth wheels bordered me initially to some extent but a combination of raised to 45 psi tire pressure, new heavier Passport and a habit to keep closer to the right side of the lane made them a nonissue. They pass me, I pass them, mostly when going uphill. There is no way to beat 268hp per 11,000 lb. LOL.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:27 PM   #37
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Re: TV is a SUV

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Semis, as well as "colleagues" with motorhomes or diesel duallies with fifth wheels bordered me initially to some extent but a combination of raised to 45 psi tire pressure, new heavier Passport and a habit to keep closer to the right side of the lane made them a nonissue. They pass me, I pass them, mostly when going uphill. There is no way to beat 268hp per 11,000 lb. LOL.
268 hp? Pulling almost 7000 lbs? The torque is probably 250 lbs (it is a Merc)? Again, pulling 7000 lbs? To me that's a grocery getter. My Explorer is 290 hp and I wouldn't dream of doing what you are doing. Not HP, it's the construction of the vehicle.

Raising pressure on your P rated tires to 45 psi (assuming normal max is 44) doesn't do much. You need higher rated tires. You don't want to find that out when you are careening off the highway because you "think" your are good. Again it is what it is, and your are as smart as you are. Not to be adversarial, just dealing in reality.
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Old 10-26-2016, 08:46 PM   #38
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268 hp? Pulling almost 7000 lbs? The torque is probably 250 lbs (it is a Merc)? Again, pulling 7000 lbs? To me that's a grocery getter. My Explorer is 290 hp and I wouldn't dream of doing what you are doing. Not HP, it's the construction of the vehicle.

Raising pressure on your P rated tires to 45 psi (assuming normal max is 44) doesn't do much. You need higher rated tires. You don't want to find that out when you are careening off the highway because you "think" your are good. Again it is what it is, and your are as smart as you are. Not to be adversarial, just dealing in reality.
No, the normal pressure is 36-38 as per fuel sticker. I can boost tires to 50 cold in accordance with the sidewall. But 45 appears to be a sweet spot.
300-400 hp diesel may accelerate subjectively more comfortably and handle the headwind better. But when it comes to the max speed you can pull the weight up, horsepower per unit of weight will beat torque. And I doubt I have 7000 lb, more like 6000, 6200 with bikes- see my weight receipt in the beginning.
Ok, may be a 3500 dually will tow better and it will be much more forgiving to the setup, and it can handle something much better than Passport, but the real problem for me and many others is to live with it every day, when not towing.
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:03 PM   #39
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Re: TV is a SUV

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No, the normal pressure is 36-38 as per fuel sticker. I can boost tires to 50 cold in accordance with the sidewall. But 45 appears to be a sweet spot.
300-400 hp diesel may accelerate subjectively more comfortably and handle the headwind better. But when it comes to the max speed you can pull the weight up, horsepower per unit of weight will beat torque. And I doubt I have 7000 lb, more like 6000, 6200 with bikes- see my weight receipt in the beginning.
Ok, may be a 3500 dually will tow better and it will be much more forgiving to the setup, and it can handle something much better than Passport, but the real problem for me and many others is to live with it every day, when not towing.
Understand. What you are saying is that you are living with what you have and trying to do the best you can....say that in your posts.

You don't have the optimal towing setup...and you know that. Please just acknowledge that and let folks know what you are doing to try to compensate for that...not saying it all works out OK no matter what you do.

You need to do what I do. Bought a new 2012 pickup, did not live up to what I wanted, bought a new 2014 HD and now looking at a '16 when they try to sell them off. Bought a new '17 Ford Explorer for mom at the end of July. Not happy with it. Will get a new Sequoia by the end of Nov. Don't live with things that don't work....IMO.
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Old 10-26-2016, 09:45 PM   #40
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Re: TV is a SUV

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Understand. What you are saying is that you are living with what you have and trying to do the best you can....say that in your posts.

You don't have the optimal towing setup...and you know that. Please just acknowledge that and let folks know what you are doing to try to compensate for that...not saying it all works out OK no matter what you do.

You need to do what I do. Bought a new 2012 pickup, did not live up to what I wanted, bought a new 2014 HD and now looking at a '16 when they try to sell them off. Bought a new '17 Ford Explorer for mom at the end of July. Not happy with it. Will get a new Sequoia by the end of Nov. Don't live with things that don't work....IMO.
But then we going back to the beginning. What is the definition of "does work"? Any objective numbers, tests in performance, stability etc? But in fact most people on the forum like to talk about "comfort" ,"experience" and so on, and most never had a chance to test a Canam rig. I am a part of a small community, there are maybe thousands of us among millions, and for most the people was not easy to take the plunge. But it starts from education and knowledge, and then comes experience, and eventually you get your own understanding and stereotypes of what works and what does not, and you keep doing things this way, usually get your next vehicle and go straight to Canam.
Interestingly, most of my critics are on line, in real world on the rest areas people are mostly amazed by coolness, esthetics and balance of my combo, ask questions, own similar vehicles and want to get into RVing...
Absolute majoruty of people actually living with what they have, I see plenty of popups, small 16 footers without slides, everything is relative. And once in a while I see motorhome or fifth wheel in the gutter with wheels up...Why this happened with them if they did everything right? Were they overloaded? Of course, because there are no other causes of accidents when it comes to RV, without it people may speed, drink, text, fall asleep, be blown by the wind..., but with TT its only weight or short wheelbase.
Ok, enough philosophy for the evening.
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_______________
'16 Passport 2670 BH
'11 Mercedes ML 350 gas, Reinforced OEM hitch receiver,1000 lb Eaz-Lift with custom welded head, 2 sway control bars, Prodigy P2 - ALL SETUP by Canam RV, Ontario, Canada
TST 507 trailer TPMS


'13 Passport 2650 BH- traded in
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