RV Construction Quality

[FordFella]

Hello All -



I'm new to the forum, but have been researching RVs for some time. My wife and I are looking to get one in the near future with the hopes of vacationing out west (we live in Florida). My truck has a tow capacity of 7100 pounds, so I'm trying to keep the dry weight down to 4500 pounds or less.



The RV that seemed to have most of what we wanted/needed is the 2020 Keystone Passport 239ML. I like it's storage, layout, and it has a full 60x80 queen bed (I'm 6'4"). Additionally, there's a dealer I really like that carries this model. However, there's always an opinion of an RV that's "better."


It appears the Keystone has pinch rolled walls, foam in the floor, possible OSB in the floor construction, and no ladder because of a "no walk" roof - all of which I'm not a fan of.



I've looked at other RVs (Grand Design Imagine XLS 21BHE, Rockwood Mini Lite 2508, etc.) that appear to be better made, but who knows.


The main concern I have is delamination of the walls and other structure issues. I see posts saying vacuum bonded is supremely better than pinch rolled, but both can suffer delam.


I would appreciate any insight from those with knowledge and experience.


Also, is there any "extended warranty" that covers delamination? I haven't found one...

[Frank G]

An Airstream might be what you are looking for.

[shermris]

RV construction quantity eliminates a lot of quality. Most RVs are made as quickly as possible, you can usually improve a build by upgrading the material for a higher price but that won't guarantee better workmanship. Time is the enemy every RV. Rust, water, sun, cold and use all take their toll and there comes a point when repairs cost more than the value of the trailer. Typical travel trailers last 10 to 15 years before maintenance costs become excessive. This time can increase with materials, storage and care, or it can decrease with lack of the same.

[FordFella]

I like airstreams, just can't afford one...

[linux3]

We have a Passport 195RB and the dry weight is ~3700 LBS. Fully loaded and ready for a 4 week trip was 4500 LBS.
4 years of ownership and the only problem was when a dealer forgot to install the roof antena water tight boot.
IMHO a 1/2 ton truck is good for 5 ~ 6K lbs. Keep this in mind when you are looking.
My wife and I like 4 to 5K mile trips and were looking for light and easy to tow. YMMD

[NH_Bulldog]

We have the 240BH and have had no issues (yet). Not sure why you would need/want a roof ladder? On that model (rear layout is the same as ours) the ladder would block either the bunk egress window on the right, the water heater in the center, or the spare tire on the left. I have had numerous travel trailers and never needed a roof ladder (I am 6’4” and the trailer is only 10’6” at the highest point of the top of the AC unit, so I can reach all I need from a conventional ladder. Having the standard Queen bed is awesome

[FordFella]

The ladder is not so much an issue... I just figured I would want the roof to be able to support my weight if/when roof maintenance was necessary...

[Cbrez]

We toured the Keystone plant two years ago. It was fascinating to see how they assemble RVs. It’s a very efficient assembly line that built our rig in just 1.5 days. In theory quality control should be very good, but it doesn’t work out that way. We overheard several discussions by plant workers (during happy hour) about how they saw errors by coworkers upstream in the assembly process, but ignored the issue due to production quotas. Best advice is to not drive it off the lot until you are sure all of the systems, controls and equipment work properly.

[KeithInUpstateNY]

Originally Posted by FordFella

It appears the Keystone has pinch rolled walls, foam in the floor, possible OSB in the floor construction, and no ladder because of a "no walk" roof - all of which I'm not a fan of.

It's not just Keystone, the construction techniques you cite are pretty standard across brands in the "ultralite" market. Solid plywood floors add weight. As do walkable roofs which require thicker roof decking.

So, you have to choose between heavier, sturdier construction and living space to stay in the same weight range. Last year I traded my 2015 Bullet 220RBI for a 2014 Prime Time Avenger 21RB that my dealer had taken in trade. The weights are almost identical at just over 4600#. I lost some square footage because the Bullet had opposing 6' slides, but I got a trailer with a one piece marine plywood floor with a 25 year transferrable warranty and a walkable roof, which can carry a heavier snow load up here near the Canadian border in upstate NY. Footnote: it doesn't have rear wall ladder, so don't use that as a benchmark as to whether or not the roof is walkable.

You mentioned having a dealer you want to do business with and that can be invaluable. Make your best choice from the lines he/she carries. If they don't have the model you want they can probably order it for you or do a dealer trade if they are a smaller dealer.

[66joej]

"The main concern I have is delamination of the walls and other structure issues. I see posts saying vacuum bonded is supremely better than pinch rolled, but both can suffer delam."


If concerned about delamination maybe check out RVs made with Azdel walls. They are supposed? to eliminate this problem. YMMV

[KeithInUpstateNY]

Originally Posted by 66joej

The main concern I have is delamination of the walls and other structure issues. I see posts saying vacuum bonded is supremely better than pinch rolled, but both can suffer delam.





If concerned about delamination maybe check out RVs made with Azdel walls. They are supposed? to eliminate this problem. YMMV

There's a good explanation of the benefits of Azdel, and manufacturers who were using it when the video was made, here: https://youtu.be/0S86wb-yGEM

60 days submerged in water with no delamination. That's pretty impressive.

[FordFella]

That was a good video. I went to Azdel's site and got a list of RV manufacturer's that uses it. There are only a few that have kind of what I'm looking for (bunk house, murphy bed), and those are the Coachmen Apex Ultra Lite 226BH and Spirit 2245BH. Even then, I like the Passport 239ML better for a number of reasons. I would suppose that this is where someone says that no RV is perfect.



Any Passport 239ML owners care to weight in? Good, bad, ugly...

[FordFella]

I had sent an email earlier to Keystone asking some questions about the Passport's construction. I figured I would share the information I received...


The walls for all Keystone brands are pinch rolled in a climate controlled environment, controlling temperature and humidity.

Then every wall goes through testing.

No fiberboard is used in the Passport.

The cabinet stiles are lumbercore.
The walls are aluminum framed, but not 16" on center like wood construction.

Aluminum studs are random based on doors, window, cabinetry, structure integrity, etc.

The cell block styrofoam walls, along with the aluminum studs and the lamination process creates the wall strength.

ALL laminated walls are built the same.

The rear wall is laminated like the side walls.

The front wall and roof are aluminum framed and filled with R-11 batting insulation like the roof.

The roof trusses are 16" on center.

The roof decking is luan (approx 1/4" thick).

1/4" thick is a little too thin to walk on, you could crack the wood. If you could walk on the trusses you would be OK.

To service the roof, it's recommended to lay a thin layer of luan sheeting on the roof and crawl.
The floor in also laminated. It has the bottom moisture barrier wrap, luan, cell block styrofoam inserted in the aluminum frame (like the sidewalls), 2 layers of luan on top, then the vinyl floor.



I was also advised to look at the 2017 Passport brochure since it showed the Passport's layers of construction. Here it is:
https://www.keystonerv.com/media/2259/passport-2017.pdf


I just thought this was worth sharing...

[danf]

IMO, these are made to be disposable.


I have a 2016 bullet which has water issues in the floor. The construction, which is the same across makes/models, makes it really difficult to repair.



The frame members on the floor are so far apart, the floor will sag even without water damage. When you check out the camper, walk around and look for squishy spots. Those will only get worse as the camper is used. Eventually the floor will just delaminate where those spots are.




If water gets in the floor, the flooring will rot and you might as well as set the trailer on fire.

[Retired Copper]

Having a good dealer and service department means a lot and is the first things I look for. I owned a PassPort and it was a great little trailer, towed well, everything worked like it was suppose too and only maybe two minor issues that I could easily take care of. When my brother was looking for a lite trailer for occasional use I told him to look at the ml 239 and the 2400. I have no problem recommend someone look closely at the PassPort line if you want a lite easy towable rv. What I do recommend also is keeping in under cover. Like in Florida the heat, sun and rain here can be brutal. If you like the 239 start from the ground up looking at everything. I usually start with axle rating and tire ratings. Good luck and Happy Camping.

[FordFella]

Thanks for the info so far...
Anyone have any input on the Wildwood/Salem FSX 179DBK ?
i.e. Passport 239ML vs FSX 179DBK ?
From I see, the FSX is a standard wood frame with aluminum siding, but has a 5/8" plywood floor. It's about 1000 lbs lighter than the 239ML, but has a shorter queen bed (60x74 instead of 60x80).

[rjsurfer]

Originally Posted by danf

IMO, these are made to be disposable.


I have a 2016 bullet which has water issues in the floor. The construction, which is the same across makes/models, makes it really difficult to repair.



The frame members on the floor are so far apart, the floor will sag even without water damage. When you check out the camper, walk around and look for squishy spots. Those will only get worse as the camper is used. Eventually the floor will just delaminate where those spots are.




If water gets in the floor, the flooring will rot and you might as well as set the trailer on fire.

I had my 2018 5th wheel changed out for a 2019 because of a rotting floor, I would not recommend any RV with that type of foam core floor system.

Between their prosperity to rot when wet and the lack of proper under framing AND the difficulty in repairing floor damage they are a nightmare.

Ron W.

[KeithInUpstateNY]

For a good visual on water damage in a foam core laminated floor see: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...3&share_type=t


Floor repair on Bullet

[travelin texans]

When shopping there's a couple other items.
The dry weight of any RV you may look at means absolutely nothing to you! That weight is without batteries, propane or any liquid of any kind, once it left the factory it will NEVER EVER weigh that again regardless if you add nothing in it. ALWAYS use the max GVWR posted on the RV tag to determine if your tow vehicle will be up to the task.
Second, the max tow rating of your vehicle also is of no help to you. Check the payload sticker on the drivers door post for the max payload of YOUR particular vehicle, don't use some brochure, fall the "half ton towable" BS or take the RV/truck salesman's word. The payload is everything you put in or on your vehicle including the weight of the hitch & the tongue weight of the RV. You will exceed the payload long before you ever reach the max tow weight.

[atkinsb3]

In the end there are two main types of RV construction: Those that leak and the wall delaminates, and those that leak and rot out the wood frame in the walls and floor. Gotta luv em!