1/2 ton shoot out!

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Free88

I would not recommend the (big) diesels unless you will be towing 10k plus on a regular basis and/or you simply need more towing capacity than is available with the gassers.

The real question is which has the least cost per mile during a period of ownership. The (big) diesels are far more expensive on a cost per mile basis no matter how you calculate it. They do get slightly more MPG's, but diesel fuel also costs more and you additionally have to buy DEF. Also, the regular scheduled maintenance is far more expensive for the diesel. You will never overcome this over the life of the truck. The diesel option is usually a good $8k-$9k more (when you factor in the percent reduction in negotiation) when you buy. It will depreciate the same percentage just like the gas version. You will not be getting that $8k-$9k back on the back end. There is a myth that says you will, but its nonsense. Overall, its a lot more expensive to go with the diesel.

None of this is the say the (big) diesels suck. They are wicked powerful and can rip a CBS house off its foundation. But on CPM, forget it. The gassers are way cheaper to own and operate. If you need the diesel, then get it. Otherwise, you are better off spending the extra coin on other options.

Unless someone simply WANTS a diesel and doesn't really give a damn how much it costs or what it'll be worth at trade in time and couldn't care less how much an oil change costs, and simply WANT to drive a diesel. Then your theories go out the window. For me, it's more expensive to drive a diesel, I don't really "need" one, but guess what's in my garage??? Yup, my choice of trucks, just happens to be a diesel.... I might add that my DW was really disappointed that the new Ford 6.7L diesel is so quiet. She enjoyed our older trucks and revving the engine at a stop light, spewing black sooty smoke all over those little "Prius things".... I try to keep her from doing it, but sometimes a gal's gotta do what a gal needs to do......

[chuckster57]

If I could have a Ford body, Cummins engine and an Allison transmission all in the same truck I would be a happy camper.

Until then I’ll be content with my PAID FOR 230HP 325lb ft of torque.

[Badbart56]

Originally Posted by Free88

I would not recommend the (big) diesels unless you will be towing 10k plus on a regular basis and/or you simply need more towing capacity than is available with the gassers.

The real question is which has the least cost per mile during a period of ownership. The (big) diesels are far more expensive on a cost per mile basis no matter how you calculate it. They do get slightly more MPG's, but diesel fuel also costs more and you additionally have to buy DEF. Also, the regular scheduled maintenance is far more expensive for the diesel. You will never overcome this over the life of the truck. The diesel option is usually a good $8k-$9k more (when you factor in the percent reduction in negotiation) when you buy. It will depreciate the same percentage just like the gas version. You will not be getting that $8k-$9k back on the back end. There is a myth that says you will, but its nonsense. Overall, its a lot more expensive to go with the diesel.

None of this is the say the (big) diesels suck. They are wicked powerful and can rip a CBS house off its foundation. But on CPM, forget it. The gassers are way cheaper to own and operate. If you need the diesel, then get it. Otherwise, you are better off spending the extra coin on other options.

It's only money dude. Drive what you want to drive if you can afford it, diesels are a blast!

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Free88

I would not recommend the (big) diesels unless you will be towing 10k plus on a regular basis and/or you simply need more towing capacity than is available with the gassers.

The real question is which has the least cost per mile during a period of ownership. The (big) diesels are far more expensive on a cost per mile basis no matter how you calculate it. They do get slightly more MPG's, but diesel fuel also costs more and you additionally have to buy DEF. Also, the regular scheduled maintenance is far more expensive for the diesel. You will never overcome this over the life of the truck. The diesel option is usually a good $8k-$9k more (when you factor in the percent reduction in negotiation) when you buy. It will depreciate the same percentage just like the gas version. You will not be getting that $8k-$9k back on the back end. There is a myth that says you will, but its nonsense. Overall, its a lot more expensive to go with the diesel.

None of this is the say the (big) diesels suck. They are wicked powerful and can rip a CBS house off its foundation. But on CPM, forget it. The gassers are way cheaper to own and operate. If you need the diesel, then get it. Otherwise, you are better off spending the extra coin on other options.

My last 2 tow vehicles have been diesel duallies & quite honestly couldn't tell much difference in cost of routine maintenance between the previous gassers. Oil changes were 2-3 on the gassers to 1 on the diesel (dealership had it on sale frequently for $59), used the same air filter, fuel filter if done by me was a minimal expense & the one everyone that doesn't own a diesel keeps bringing up is the DEF, which on my 2nd tv was about $10-12 every 3500 miles (less than .03 cents a mile), if bought at the pump it was half that price.
Yes if you had major problems it was costly, but on today's computer managed vehicles any/all repairs could/can be major regardless if gas or diesel. Replaced a headlight bulb, same on gas or diesel 1/2 to 1 tons, which cost $28 & took about an hour to replace, so had the dealer done the work probably $150-200.
My 1st one the torque converter went out, which according to the dealership that did the warranty & a factory rep, that was a 1 in a million on an Allison tranny, so odd it took a week to locate one. The newer truck the turbo bit the dust, under warranty, they replaced it. With 330k on 2 trucks, half of which was towing heavy 5ers, those were the only issues. Both got between 8.5 to 12.5 mpg, that's not the internet 2+ mileage either, depending on terrain & my right foot.
In my opinion if towing 5k or less get a half ton brand of your choice, 5-10k a 3/4 or 1 ton gasser can probably git'er done (mileage will suck), anything bigger get a 1 ton diesel dually.
As to depreciation, most any diesel truck, even with high mileage, will be worth more at trade or sold out right than a gasser with fewer miles, if in doubt look up on any used truck websites & start comparing.
If you don't want a diesel, by all means don't buy one, but if towing a medium to heavy RV regularly it's absolutely the best option.

[mwemaxxowner]

Being a Platinum drastically reduces the truckability of the truck. Also, it could have the 3.15 or 3.31 gearing. We don't know. So, if it does, being a Platinum, it's nearly maxed out on every front. With a limited gvwr I don't want to spend it all on creature comforts. I have an XLT, seems very nice to me. Many more options than anything else I've ever driven.

I've been on both sides of this. I drove an old 250 460 (3/4 gasser), then a SD 250 7.3 6 speed manual for 10 years, now a half ton gasser. There are pros and cons to both sides. Our current truck fits our needs the best of anything we could have chosen, and my 9-10 mpg towing seems just fine to us. The other 20,000 miles a year it spends commuting. As a weekend warrior at best I have no need for my old SD, though that truck will always be one of the best I owned.

Nobody is getting "5-6 mpg" towing with these trucks unless something is wrong.

And back to the point being made in the OP, @72k, then it's a truck that was fitted with every single option and intentionally made to cost that much. They are available squarely in the 30s, and even the upper 20s for xl rc 2wd trucks.

That's the point here. The crazy, inaccurate figures being thrown around Willy nilly. For what reason?

[Free88]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

My last 2 tow vehicles have been diesel duallies & quite honestly couldn't tell much difference in cost of routine maintenance between the previous gassers. Oil changes were 2-3 on the gassers to 1 on the diesel (dealership had it on sale frequently for $59), used the same air filter, fuel filter if done by me was a minimal expense & the one everyone that doesn't own a diesel keeps bringing up is the DEF, which on my 2nd tv was about $10-12 every 3500 miles (less than .03 cents a mile), if bought at the pump it was half that price.
Yes if you had major problems it was costly, but on today's computer managed vehicles any/all repairs could/can be major regardless if gas or diesel. Replaced a headlight bulb, same on gas or diesel 1/2 to 1 tons, which cost $28 & took about an hour to replace, so had the dealer done the work probably $150-200.
My 1st one the torque converter went out, which according to the dealership that did the warranty & a factory rep, that was a 1 in a million on an Allison tranny, so odd it took a week to locate one. The newer truck the turbo bit the dust, under warranty, they replaced it. With 330k on 2 trucks, half of which was towing heavy 5ers, those were the only issues. Both got between 8.5 to 12.5 mpg, that's not the internet 2+ mileage either, depending on terrain & my right foot.
In my opinion if towing 5k or less get a half ton brand of your choice, 5-10k a 3/4 or 1 ton gasser can probably git'er done (mileage will suck), anything bigger get a 1 ton diesel dually.
As to depreciation, most any diesel truck, even with high mileage, will be worth more at trade or sold out right than a gasser with fewer miles, if in doubt look up on any used truck websites & start comparing.
If you don't want a diesel, by all means don't buy one, but if towing a medium to heavy RV regularly it's absolutely the best option.

Its roughly three times more expensive to do the regular scheduled maintenance on the diesel vs gas in the 3/4- and 1-ton trucks. You may choose to the maintenance as recommended by the OEM or not. Thats an individual choice. But if you follow the schedule, its about three times more expensive to maintain the diesel version of the truck.

I agree with your towed weights assesement. Under 5k you will be fine with a half-ton. 5k-10k get a 3/4- or 1-ton gasser. Above 10k on a regular basis and/or above the gassers tow rating, get the diesel. This is not to say you cant occasionaly exceed 5k on a half-ton or 10k on an HD gasser. But I would not do it on a regular basis.

I did not say the the HD diesel would not be worth more than the HD gasser at the end of your ownership period. The percent depreciation is roughly the same, however. You dont get your whole $8k-$9k returned to you on the back end of ownership, which is what some people think. That money gets depreciated on the same schedule as the rest of the truck. Diesel trucks do not depreciate less than their gas equivalent trucks.

Some people "need" the diesel, but not because they actually need the diesel. And thats fine. If you have the money to burn, have at it. Like I said, I think they are crazy powerful. They are a blast to drive. The largest load I tow has a max weight of 8800lb and that resolves to a total weight of about 17300lbs with payload, passengers, etc. Normally, its more like 15500lbs. Either way, this is well within my trucks rating of 21100lbs, and the 6.0L has enough capability for this weight. Our next trailer years from now will likely be a 10k or so 5th wheel. I will want to get the diesel, but probably not a dually. Whoever can give me the best deal on what I want at the time is what I will get. I own no stock in Ford, Chevy, etc. I really dont care who "wins." All of them can serve this role and do it well. One huge plus for me on the 2018 Silverado 2500 this time - aside from just being cheaper- was that a WD hitch is not required for a TT up to its maximum tow rating. None of the others can claim that, and it is a nice convenience. This wont be an issue on a 5th wheel.

[CaptnJohn]

[emoji1] 3 times the cost of maintenance [emoji23] . We have a 2017 F150 grocery getter and on our 4th F350 after a F250.

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

[emoji1] 3 times the cost of maintenance [emoji23] . We have a 2017 F150 grocery getter and on our 4th F350 after a F250.

I have pulled a 7k TT with the 150 and get a little better than 7 mpg. I pull 17k with the 350 and get 10.8 average. The 2019 diesel gets 21 highway and 17.5 town with only 550# in the bed.

Just wanted a new truck and traded the 2016 with near 100k miles. New truck was X plan and know what I paid. Trade was $12.7k less than paid for. Dealers like used 250 diesel better. None get excited about a add or Hd gasser.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

[emoji1] 3 times the cost of maintenance [emoji23] . We have a 2017 F150 grocery getter and on our 4th F350 after a F250.

That's my experience as well. Having owned diesel trucks since 1993 and having "interspersed gas trucks in that mix" I can say that I see no significant difference in maintenance costs for diesel power over gas power. Assuming that both types do not have a mechanical breakdown, routine maintenance is essentially the same for either vehicle. As for fuel pricing, currently in this area, diesel averages $2.60 and gas (87 octane) averages $2.68. With diesel trucks averaging 18MPG solo and 11MPG towing and gas trucks averaging 15MPG solo and 9MPG towing, it's clear, at least in this area, that diesel power is cheaper to "fuel" than gas power (at least in the heavy duty truck class).

In my experience with my vehicles, any 6.0-6.2 gas engine is going to use more fuel per mile than a comparable diesel. If gas costs more than diesel (which for me it currently does) then that even further compounds the cost of GAS ownership.

Then, as for trade in value, every diesel truck I see on any sales lot around here is 5K-8K more than a comparable year/equipped gas truck. The "low end" (5K) typically is for older (2005-2012) and the "high end" (8K) for newer (2015-2018) trucks. So, the $9K cost for a diesel is, for the most part, recovered in trade, at least when it comes to used truck pricing in the retail market. Who really knows (except the owner and the dealer) what anyone really gets for their truck at trade in time?

[CaptnJohn]

Who knows? When both are purchased on the A or X plan you know exactly what each costs. Subtract trade allowance from purchase and it is easy. Agree the average buyer would have a hard time.

Ford and DAV have a partnership. You know the cost as it is printed on the invoice the dealer is required to provide. The normal document fee of $400-$600 in my case has been $100. You also receive all current rebates.

[Free88]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

That's my experience as well. Having owned diesel trucks since 1993 and having "interspersed gas trucks in that mix" I can say that I see no significant difference in maintenance costs for diesel power over gas power. Assuming that both types do not have a mechanical breakdown, routine maintenance is essentially the same for either vehicle. As for fuel pricing, currently in this area, diesel averages $2.60 and gas (87 octane) averages $2.68. With diesel trucks averaging 18MPG solo and 11MPG towing and gas trucks averaging 15MPG solo and 9MPG towing, it's clear, at least in this area, that diesel power is cheaper to "fuel" than gas power (at least in the heavy duty truck class).

In my experience with my vehicles, any 6.0-6.2 gas engine is going to use more fuel per mile than a comparable diesel. If gas costs more than diesel (which for me it currently does) then that even further compounds the cost of GAS ownership.

Then, as for trade in value, every diesel truck I see on any sales lot around here is 5K-8K more than a comparable year/equipped gas truck. The "low end" (5K) typically is for older (2005-2012) and the "high end" (8K) for newer (2015-2018) trucks. So, the $9K cost for a diesel is, for the most part, recovered in trade, at least when it comes to used truck pricing in the retail market. Who really knows (except the owner and the dealer) what anyone really gets for their truck at trade in time?

Today, 87 ethanol is 2.28/gal and diesel is 2.99/gal in my neck of the woods. And thats a pretty typical spread for most of the year. Yes, the diesel will get slightly better MPG's, but you wont make up that difference in the cost of the fuel. At best, its even. Its not, though, when you factor in the loss of MPG during regens. Also, you can use 89 or 90 rec fuel in the gasser and that MPG advantage mostly goes away. Sometimes it actually makes sense to use rec fuel, sometimes not. The price around here is usually about 10 cents more for 89 or 90 rec vs diesel. Thats not the case everywhere. And, we are ignoring DEF costs.

It is a myth that diesel 3/4-tons and 1-tons retain a higher percentage depreciation vs their gas counterparts. The depreciation percentage is nearly identical. You will get some of your diesel adder costs when you trade it in or sell it privately, just like you will for most of the other options you paid for. It will not be the full value. Dollar for dollar, you lose more the more expensive the truck was to begin with for at least three main reasons. Finance cost being one of them. Larger loans and for longer finance periods costs you more interest. More expensive truck, more expensive insurance. If you bought a $100k and a $50k truck and 5 years down the line you will get 50% of what you paid, well, for truck one you lost $50k and truck two you lost $25k. Its simple math, and its pretty hard to argue against. But, hey, whatever.

Again, I have nothing against (big) diesels. Stump pulling marvels of modern technology, I says. But to argue that diesel's are cheaper than gas in 3/4-tons and 1-tons is absurd. That math will never agree with you, simple as that. The small diesels, such as we are starting to see in half-tons and mid-size, is a whole other ball game. Those can actually be cheaper to own than their gas counterparts.

'Round here, the gas 3/4-tons and 1-tons are what flies off the lots. It is very difficult to find one with that just-right equipment level, and you usually have to either drive hundreds of miles to get it or you beg the dealer to do an inventory swap for you. As soon as they come in they are sold within days. Similar trucks but with the diesel? "We have every color, trim level, 4WD, 2WD, basically every major configuration you want if you went diesel." And so does the other dealer 10 miles away, and the one 20 miles away, and so on. You want gas, well, there is this one dealer 250 miles away that can actually keep in stock gassers that are not work trucks for longer than a week...

[Badbart56]

Today, 87 ethanol is 2.28/gal and diesel is 2.99/gal in my neck of the woods.

Looking at GasBuddy, diesel in Ft. Myers is only $2.62 a gallon today.


Also,you can use 89 or 90 rec fuel in the gasser and that MPG advantage mostly goes away. Sometimes it actually makes sense to use rec fuel, sometimes not. The price around here is usually about 10 cents more for 89 or 90 rec vs diesel.

What? You think using higher octane in a vehicle made for lower octane improves mileage? If that's the case why isn't everyone doing it?

rec fuel? Midgrade gas is $2.54 in Ft. Myers today.


And, we are ignoring DEF costs.

2 1/2 gallon jugs of DEF at Walmart are 7 bucks. I use one probably every 10 fill ups.




'Round here, the gas 3/4-tons and 1-tons are what flies off the lots.

"Round here you can't get rid of them. They're gas hogs, plain and simple. The people I know that have had them got 12 mpg or less, not towing anything. Some of these guys went down to a 1/2 ton again because it was so bad. Some went to a diesel.

The fleet of 2015 Chevy 2500's that my previous employer had averaged 11 mpg and the power was not impressive. I'm not denying that diesels cost more, but it's not the picture you're painting. No, they're not for everyone and sometimes you need more than what a half ton will do, even though they're more capable than ever. Power comes at a cost, that's just the way it is. And I like power! That's why one of my other cars is a Cadillac CTS V!

[CaptnJohn]

Around here you cannot give a 3/4 or 1 ton gasser away. Dealers don’t even want them on trade unless they are a beat up contractors truck they give next to nothing for. Demographics and locations.

[tech740]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

If I could have a Ford body, Cummins engine and an Allison transmission all in the same truck I would be a happy camper.

Until then I’ll be content with my PAID FOR 230HP 325lb ft of torque.

I have said that combo was the best for a while now. Interesting to find someone who thinks the same.

Just went with a 2019 Ram 3500 cummins with the Aisin though. I am hoping it rivals the Allison.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Free88

Today, 87 ethanol is 2.28/gal and diesel is 2.99/gal in my neck of the woods. And thats a pretty typical spread for most of the year. Yes, the diesel will get slightly better MPG's, but you wont make up that difference in the cost of the fuel. At best, its even. Its not, though, when you factor in the loss of MPG during regens. Also, you can use 89 or 90 rec fuel in the gasser and that MPG advantage mostly goes away. Sometimes it actually makes sense to use rec fuel, sometimes not. The price around here is usually about 10 cents more for 89 or 90 rec vs diesel. Thats not the case everywhere. And, we are ignoring DEF costs.

It is a myth that diesel 3/4-tons and 1-tons retain a higher percentage depreciation vs their gas counterparts. The depreciation percentage is nearly identical. You will get some of your diesel adder costs when you trade it in or sell it privately, just like you will for most of the other options you paid for. It will not be the full value. Dollar for dollar, you lose more the more expensive the truck was to begin with for at least three main reasons. Finance cost being one of them. Larger loans and for longer finance periods costs you more interest. More expensive truck, more expensive insurance. If you bought a $100k and a $50k truck and 5 years down the line you will get 50% of what you paid, well, for truck one you lost $50k and truck two you lost $25k. Its simple math, and its pretty hard to argue against. But, hey, whatever.

Again, I have nothing against (big) diesels. Stump pulling marvels of modern technology, I says. But to argue that diesel's are cheaper than gas in 3/4-tons and 1-tons is absurd. That math will never agree with you, simple as that. The small diesels, such as we are starting to see in half-tons and mid-size, is a whole other ball game. Those can actually be cheaper to own than their gas counterparts.

'Round here, the gas 3/4-tons and 1-tons are what flies off the lots. It is very difficult to find one with that just-right equipment level, and you usually have to either drive hundreds of miles to get it or you beg the dealer to do an inventory swap for you. As soon as they come in they are sold within days. Similar trucks but with the diesel? "We have every color, trim level, 4WD, 2WD, basically every major configuration you want if you went diesel." And so does the other dealer 10 miles away, and the one 20 miles away, and so on. You want gas, well, there is this one dealer 250 miles away that can actually keep in stock gassers that are not work trucks for longer than a week...

Curious, how many of the newer diesels have you owned recently?
If at least 1 your opinions could be fact!
If none then we know where the "myths" start!
I will tell my son's factual story on an '05 3500 Ram Mega cab 4x4 with 180k on the odometer. He paid $24k which was about $5k under book at the time, drove it for another 40-50k, had the engine rebuilt for $9k then some knucklehead ran him off the road, insurance totalled the truck & paid him almost $39k, so much for that huge depreciation on a used diesel.

[Mad Cow]

Yeah, MPG alone is myopic way to view things. The actual fuel cost per mile really tells the story. My Chevy 2500 6.0 gasser is flex fuel. I get E85 for $1.89 a gallon lately. It averages for all miles about 11-12 mpg. Diesel is going for $3.01 as of yesterday. For a diesel version of the same 2500 pickup, just to break even on fuel cost per mile it would have to average a hair over 18 mpg. Possible in the right hands, but still only break even.

As for the 1/2 ton "shootout", there is no 1/2 ton that has anywhere near the capability of the average 3/4 ton in both payload and towing. And I have seen brand new 2020 Chevy 2500's with the new 6.6L gasser (401HP / 464LB) going for $40K out the door. Even NADA shows the average selling price in the $40K range with average MSRP at $48K.

Hence, I never even consider 1/2 tons. Over inflated prices and not worth what they sell for.

[wobly]

Originally Posted by foldbak

... Oh ya and remove the rear seats for the dog

Most of the upper RAM trim levels have a feature where you can fold up the back seat and fold out a flat floor. Great for the dogs!

[blubuckaroo]

My son has an F150, and pulls a trailer very close to the size and weight of ours. About 24'. He gets around 9 MPG when towing.
Our Chevy Silverado with the 5.3 gets around 13.

The thing most truck buyers fail to do though, is to compare tow packages. You can't just compare a Ford F150 to a Chevy. Each of the manufacturers offer a variety of tow ratings. The rear end ratio is the biggest part of this.

The other thing is, whenever I think of turbo, I think $$$.
Maybe they have all the bugs out, but a pickup isn't a short term investment for me.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by travelin texans

And it can actually be called a "TOW VEHICLE"!
Didn't see or read the article, but suspect they were towing a utility trailer with blocks, which is a total different tow experience than a RV of the same weight.

They were towing car trailers with modern muscle cars and weights to make each trailer same weight.

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by mwemaxxowner

I get 9-10...

Most others I know on f150ecoboost.net and the various groups/forums I participate in report the same approximate average while towing. 5-6 is hogwash and propaganda.

"Top end f150" doesn't mean a whole lot. They can come rated for anywhere from 5000 to 13,200 lbs towing, and 1000 to 3000 lbs of payload.

There are a myriad of options available with different towing packages, payload packages, and gear ratios. Rear ends obviously being the biggest factor, and the new 10 speed tranny is leaps and bounds above the 6. Much shorter first gear and taller overdrive gears, regardless of rear end ratio.

Your description of the truck leads me to believe that a) you don't know much about what gear ratio it has, what sort of towing or other packages you have. We very well could be talking about a truck that's I'll equipped for the load.

B) top end also leads me to believe it's a Platinum, King Ranch, etc. The higher you go up the options totem pole, the more expensive truck you have, and the less capable. Every option detracts from the payload and towing abilities, and also detracts from fuel mileage.

Ford offers the most capable engines with hdpp and/or max tow in the most bare bones of trucks in the XL package, and then on up the pole to the heavier more well optioned trucks.

I say all that to say that, without knowing the specs on said truck, can't make much of a well informed opinion about its performance. Could be talking about an apple and an orange, and a King Ranch non tow package truck with a 3.15 rear end trying to do what it wasn't designed to do.

Even towing at max gcvr through the Smokey Mountains I wasn't much worse than 10 mpg.

I'm not trying to enter a pissing contest here, I have nothing against any of your trucks, but there is a lot of hearsay and misinformation being fed as truth.

Guess I am a truck idiot; wish I were clever enough to have paid attention to all options on the Ford F150 but I can't recall most except MSRP. My point was, I was stunned by the $72K MSRP. I bought a new 2013 F150 with base V6 and spent under $18K. It got good gas mileage but couldn't tow much. I had a truck camper on it and it wasn't happy. My wife wasn't happy with the sit on the toilet to take a shower bathroom. Truck and camper went. Sounds like you are a tad sensitive to anyone blowing smoke at your Ecobooster. Sorry, not the intention of my original post. And I get over 10 mpg dragging my Cougar 5ver with my F350 6.0L diesel pig.