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Old 10-24-2018, 05:55 AM   #21
ken56
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Bought a 2017 Laredo travel trailer and have been very satisfied with its quality. Warranty issues were over the LED lights and a plugged up vacuum breaker for the black tank rinser. I did a few things to make it more suitable for us like adding 2 shelves in the pantry, I made a divider in the under bed storage compartment to accommodate our cats litter box (yes, I do wish there had been another place to put it), put door props on the upper cabinets, carpeted the front pass through storage compartment with indoor/outdoor stuff. Its been a great unit really and the floor plan is the best for us.
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Old 12-03-2018, 12:26 PM   #22
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Here are the door pistons I purchased for our Hideout. Worked perfectly.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:50 PM   #23
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When pulling up RVs Keystone used to place each model under headings of "standard", "select" or "premium". You could then tell where each model stood in the pecking order. They have changed that in the last 2-3 years and they've made it much more difficult to determine where each model fits. You either have to look at all of them very closely in person or read the information on them very closely. It appears they don't want to have any of the models appear as "economy" units although some clearly are when compared side by side.

I am attaching a link to Keystone's website that has the brochures for the Hideout, Montana and Montana HC. You will have to download and open them. I downloaded them but am unable to provide a link because they are on my desktop. Read them carefully to discern the different wording and terminology as they try to differentiate the levels of the trailers. I pulled up the Hideout east coast brochure.

https://www.keystonerv.com/lead-acti...u/?p=3255,3281

Just wanted to resurrect this old post:

As this thread alluded to, Keystone is apparently working very hard to make sure they don't differentiate between their various lines by price point or quality delineations, which is unfair IMO. I DO believe in "you get what you pay for". Seems they worry more about weight and what can pull this or that.

All that to say; I keep thinking I'm going to "upgrade" my trailer so I keep looking.....and looking. Just trying to get Keystone to enlighten me on "their" definition of the quality levels of their various models, I sent a detailed request to Keystone customer service/owner relations.....over 2 weeks ago with no response.

Although I think it would be a service to Keystone owners, and potential owners, to know the quality levels of the units they buy and how they fit in the "pecking order" (including all the "upgraded amenities/construction" to make them more luxurious) so they can determine what they want, it is painfully apparent that they have determined that they want to blur the lines so you don't have any idea if you are getting a top of the line unit or not. What to do? The only thing I can think of, and for the consumer it is ridiculous, is to look at any/all of them so you can compare. I would also suggest talking to the service manager at your dealership. Salesmen are questionable; the ones I've talked to (and I always stipulate the biggest and nicest the manufacturer makes) will ALWAYS take you to the best unit.....THAT THEY HAVE. If they don't have a better unit, they don't even mention them. Appears we just have a crap shoot any more.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:09 PM   #24
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I knew my Hideout was entry level when we bought it. It was our first RV and we have small kids that like to tear stuff up, so entry level is what I was looking for. I have been impressed with this trailer. We have had it for almost 3 years and we have camped in it about 30 or 40 times. There have been no major issues and my four kids aren’t known for being gentle with stuff. All of the essential systems and the build quality (the frame, suspension, etc) have been great. Any small thing that went wrong or something cheap we wanted to upgrade, I was able to do myself. My main complaint is the C load rated tires it came with. I haven’t had a problem with them but I am going to upgrade them soon.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:05 PM   #25
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Keystone has "hidden the quality" very well. No longer can you find the designations, Standard, Deluxe and Premium. But, alas, all is not lost.... You just have to do some division to get to the designation.... How??? you ask ???

Easy, go to the Keystone webpage and select TRAILERS, FIFTH WHEELS, TOY HAULERS or DESTINATION TRAILERS. A listing (alphabetically arranged) will "magically appear".... Just below each brand you'll find, "MSRP starting at" and "LENGTH starting at"....

Take the starting length and divide that into the starting MSRP and it will give you the "MSRP per foot" You can use that value to determine which of the trailers is the least expensive (entry level) and rank them "up the Keystone lineup" by price per foot. While not "absolutely foolproof" as a means of determining quality, it is a way to determine which trailer costs more per foot, an indication of component cost, amenities included and features....

As an example, on the first TRAILER page, the first brand is listed as BULLET with a MSRP starting at $18912 and length starting at 19'6". So the starting MSRP/length would be 18912/19.5 giving a price per foot of $964.90

The Cougar Half Ton MSRP starts at $29057 and length starts at 25'11". That's a MSRP/length of $1120.59

The Springdale MSRP starts at 16762 and length starts at 21'5". That's a MSRP/length of $659.51.

The Hideout MSRP starts at 16703 and length starts at 21'5". That's a MSRP/length of $657.19.

So, when comparing these four trailers, the Hideout and the Springdale are "comparable" and the Bullet comes in next highest and the Cougar Half Ton comes in as the most expensive.

If you use this formula to compare price per foot for the models, you can get a fairly accurate assessment of where each fits in the Keystone lineup.

ADDED: When comparing fifth wheel models, the Springdale MSRP/length is around $1151/foot while the Montana is around 2134/foot, a clear difference of almost double the price per foot. The other fifth wheels fall between those two except the Hideout which is slightly less per foot than the Springdale. Hideout is priced around $1036/foot.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:41 PM   #26
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Here is my attempt at using John's logic for the travel trailer line. The ranking columns are for $/foot (from highest price to lowest, assuming that would be highest quality to entry level) and for weight in pounds/foot (just for information) from lightest weight to heaviest.

Thank you, John, for the idea.

Edit: noticed I had a typo in one of the model lines and a wrong equation.
Edit 2: Thank you gegrad - I'm blaming my typos on my new glasses!
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by SummitPond View Post
Here is my attempt at using John's logic for the travel trailer line. The ranking columns are for $/foot (from highest price to lowest, assuming that would be highest quality to entry level) and for weight in pounds/foot (just for information) from lightest weight to heaviest.

Thank you, John, for the idea.

Edit: noticed I had a typo in one of the model lines and a wrong equation.
Premier length is wrong. Website shows its starting length as 24.25', which makes its cost/ft $1142.59, higher than the Cougar. Actually makes Premier #5, after the two Outback models, Sprinter, and almost dead even with Laredo.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:35 PM   #28
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Here are my numbers for the 5th wheels and toy haulers. Hopefully I have my glasses on straight!
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:43 PM   #29
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Thanks for the work Summit! Very handy tables!

Also fascinating that Cougar is behind Laredo in the TTs but ahead of Laredo in the 5th wheels
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:53 PM   #30
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I also love how the table/website says the raptor starts at $94,XXX, when real life is nowhere close to that. See this 2019 426TS, listed for $69,750, and I have been to this dealer; I can guarantee you would pay a little less than that for the unit.

https://www.rvtrader.com/listing/201...6TS-5003268805
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:53 PM   #31
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Ken,

A question on your toyhauler chart. Did you separate the travel trailer TH's from the fifth wheel TH's. ??? There's a significant difference in the Impact 5'ers and the Impact TT line pricing.....

Gegrad,

MSRP is a "starting point" for looking and comparing... Almost every RV sold goes for 25-35% off MSRP, some substantially more than that, depending on dealer incentives, business models and buyer's luck....
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post

Gegrad,

MSRP is a "starting point" for looking and comparing... Almost every RV sold goes for 25-35% off MSRP, some substantially more than that, depending on dealer incentives, business models and buyer's luck....
Oh, I know.. my comment was just more toward the "eyes rolling" nature of how much less they are in real life than the "starting MSRP" listed on the website.
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:16 PM   #33
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Ken,

A question on your toyhauler chart. Did you separate the travel trailer TH's from the fifth wheel TH's. ??? There's a significant difference in the Impact 5'ers and the Impact TT line pricing...
John

For the ranking, no. I never gave it a second thought as I don't have a TH and as such I didn't think to differentiate. I just used the "starting at" prices listed on the showroom page per your suggestion. I tried your instructions but didn't see any prices, so with further poking around I found the showroom page with prices.

Ken
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:20 PM   #34
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I would just add that a person needs to lay eyes, and hands, on any trailer to assess their opinion of "quality" and the amenities any given RV provides to said person. I like, and insist, on many things; some may not, and some may want more, and some of those things important to me may be totally silly to others. It just makes us look at more trailers, and more in depth....not a bad thing if you have time.
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:24 PM   #35
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Oh, I know.. my comment was just more toward the "eyes rolling" nature of how much less they are in real life than the "starting MSRP" listed on the website.
Gegrad, I know what you mean. We were at CW today (spending a coupon; smart marketing on their part) and decided to take a look at some of the bigger Keystone units that were out. We happened upon a Sprinter Limited 319MKS that my wife fell in love with (oops!) Fortunately (for the pocketbook) it is a tad too much trailer for our TV. They had the price listed at about $51K, yet when we got home she found it on CW's web site for about $29K. Go figure!

It strikes me as strange - this trailer is listed as "new" in the 2018 catalog, yet the web site says "stock only" which to me means it is being discontinued. I wonder what the issue is? For us it would be a great floor plan (but there's always that issue with the TV).
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:27 PM   #36
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John

For the ranking, no. I never gave it a second thought as I don't have a TH and as such I didn't think to differentiate. I just used the "starting at" prices listed on the showroom page per your suggestion. I tried your instructions but didn't see any prices, so with further poking around I found the showroom page with prices.

Ken
The only reason I asked is that fifth wheels are inherently more expensive than travel trailers. That's because of the more complex front frame/pinbox on the 5ths. Impact has both TT and 5th wheel toy haulers. If someone is looking at your chart comparing the impact you calculated (TT) and they're interested in a 5th wheel, then the ranking would be substantially different. To me (and to you, since you don't have a TH either) it's not important, but to someone looking at Impacts, the ranking for TT's may be totally different than for 5'ers. No need to change anything, I'm just tossing it out there that TH TT's and 5'ers aren't ranked the same just like any other line may not be ranked the same in TT's and 5'ers.

Great job building a spread sheet BTW !!! Thanks
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:33 PM   #37
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Gegrad, I know what you mean. We were at CW today (spending a coupon; smart marketing on their part) and decided to take a look at some of the bigger Keystone units that were out. We happened upon a Sprinter Limited 319MKS that my wife fell in love with (oops!) Fortunately (for the pocketbook) it is a tad too much trailer for our TV. They had the price listed at about $51K, yet when we got home she found it on CW's web site for about $29K. Go figure!

It strikes me as strange - this trailer is listed as "new" in the 2018 catalog, yet the web site says "stock only" which to me means it is being discontinued. I wonder what the issue is? For us it would be a great floor plan (but there's always that issue with the TV).
Beware of "new" models that you don't see on the website but say "stock only". I bought ours because it was a high end unit and limited...the only travel trailer I ever saw listed as "premium" on the website. Bought March 14; in August 14 when I had the fenders self destruct "again"....they were then discontinued - and they never had a premium travel trailer listed again...and then no trailers at all. It's unfortunate but you just have to spend a lot of time researching these things because they don't make things very clear.
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:46 AM   #38
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Gegrad, I know what you mean. We were at CW today (spending a coupon; smart marketing on their part) and decided to take a look at some of the bigger Keystone units that were out. We happened upon a Sprinter Limited 319MKS that my wife fell in love with (oops!) Fortunately (for the pocketbook) it is a tad too much trailer for our TV. They had the price listed at about $51K, yet when we got home she found it on CW's web site for about $29K. Go figure!
Yep, I always see them discounted WAY off sticker. Cars rarely come off that much, so that is a big difference. And $22k difference from MSRP to sale price is insane. Side note: surprising that that trailer would be too much for your truck, as modern gasser 3/4 tons should be able to handle nearly any TT (fivers is where they run into trouble). Yours being 2WD should have a payload north of 3k; I can understand some of the diesels with 2100 lb payloads getting overloaded, but that is surprising that Sprinter would be too much.
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Old 12-04-2018, 10:00 AM   #39
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Does the appearance of semi-incomprehensible spreads sheets have a direct correlation to the winter season? ALL Keystone products are made in the Amish foothills by master craftsmen to the very highest standards of workmanship known to man. The Chinese off-brand tires are a kind of aberration...
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Old 12-04-2018, 03:23 PM   #40
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Does the appearance of semi-incomprehensible spreads sheets have a direct correlation to the winter season? ALL Keystone products are made in the Amish foothills by master craftsmen to the very highest standards of workmanship known to man. The Chinese off-brand tires are a kind of aberration...
I didn't know that Texas even had pot on the election in November......
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