Thank you Keystone

[Rusty]

Sorry the title of this thread is a bit misleading.

My Cougar High Country 5th wheel sits in our backyard, with the sun beating primarily on the Rear, Left, and finally the front cap. I noticed some sun fading on the front cap, contacted Keystone, got the obligatory washing of the hands, called and dragged the trailer to the Stealer, they gave me that Deer in the Headlight stair that we have all seen.

Nobody would offer any help, or any advice on what we could do, I brought up the protection package, and much like a politician all I got was the old duck and weave tactic.

Since taking the trailer to the Stealer my son and I spent a few hours last fall with 2 buffers and a bottle of wax, looked good, then come last month the fading came back enforce on the cap.

Too say I am PO'd is an understatement! I have contacted Calgary Coachworks about what to do, their suggestion was a painting of the front and rear cap, $1500 a pop, so that's a $3000 hit, and we haven't even thought about what to do with the whole freaking left side, which you can clearly see the ghosting on the side of the interior framework of the trailer!

What really PO's me is that I have doled out close to $50 grand for this thing and the Stealer and "Manufacturer" refuse to do anything, citing I should have waxed it once or twice a year since new!!!!!

I point blank asked the Stealer when doing the PDI about the exterior package and reapplying it, as our last 5th wheel had to be brought back to the dealer for the reapplication of the protection. They said and I quote: You don't need to do that as the finish will last for years"

Little did I know his quip of years meant just 2-3 years!

In our travels on the highways of Canada I am noticing more and more RV's with the same problem, it floors me that these "manufacturers" build these multi thousand dollar units with super sub par materials and they have no accountability!

I will post pictures later showing the sun damage...........

[Rusty]

Here is a shot of the left or street side, odd how you can actually see the interior framework ghosted on the outer exterior wall!

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[Rusty]

A shot of the rear cap, once again there is the ghosting of the framework!

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[Rusty]

Very hard to get a shot representative of the front cap fading.


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[Rusty]

Funny enough shortly after taking delivery of the trailer I contacted Keystone about some of the Cougar sticker possibly peeling, they sent me a new sticker and it sits in the garage, looks like I may have to use it!

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[theallde]

WOW - I never seen anything like that, should be interesting what others have to say.

[Johnny's Journey]

There's always 2 sides to every story I've been told. How old is your unit and how often has it been detailed before things became an issue ? The outdoors is a harsh place to be and things that settle like dust, smog, dropping to name a few have a way of becoming caustic.

[Frank G]

I have seen this ghosting issue on many units from different manufactures. (Including my unit) It is normally only temporary, in the early morning under the right "Dew" conditions. It goes away with a little sun.

Is your ghosting permanent? If so, will some cleaning or rubbing compound remove it? I am trying to see if it is a mold or fungus growing in the pores of the siding.

I am intrigued by how the aluminum frame effects the skin of these units, what is the science behind it. We see the results, not the why.

You notice there is no horizontal bracing around cut-outs (window and vent openings) this is typical cougar construction as witnessed in there build facilities. The side walls are glued together, the rear is not, yet the frame shows through. Interesting.

This post has not offered a lot of support, it appears there is little or no support from dealers or manufactures with fading issues. I fear for my unit in a couple of years.

My brother in law has a 14 year old Jayco that sees the light of day about 6 days a year and gets an annual wax job. It could pass for new!

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Johnny's Journey

There's always 2 sides to every story I've been told. How old is your unit and how often has it been detailed before things became an issue ? The outdoors is a harsh place to be and things that settle like dust, smog, dropping to name a few have a way of becoming caustic.

If you look at my signature block you will see that my unit is a 2013, yes I get that the outdoors can be a harsh environment, living in Calgary Alberta we don't have as much issue with smog as other areas. I wash it on an average of 2-3 times a year. I have a neighbor who has a 10 year old Dodge 1/2 ton with a fiberglass toneau cover, the truck has literally sat there for almost 10 years, he drives it maybe 1000 miles a year, yes 1000 miles!! The toneau cover looks as good as new!!!

It has become very obvious that these manufacturers use sub par materials and finishes! I honestly feel that I should not have to wax my unit once or twice a year, my truck a 2014 Dodge has never been waxed once in the 2 1/2 years I have owned it, why? Because the manufacturer uses quality materials and finishes, or at least a hell of a lot better materials and finishes, and the price of the truck is just a bit more then the trailer!

My point is that we give these dealers and in the end the manufacturer an ungodly amount of money for these things and this is the crap we get, I should be able to park my unit in my backyard and not have to worry the finish deteriorating in less then a year! It was waxed and buffed last Sept! Let that sink in, Sept which is 10 months!!!!

Sad!

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Frank G

I have seen this ghosting issue on many units from different manufactures. (Including my unit) It is normally only temporary, in the early morning under the right "Dew" conditions. It goes away with a little sun.

Is your ghosting permanent? If so, will some cleaning or rubbing compound remove it? I am trying to see if it is a mold or fungus growing in the pores of the siding.

I am intrigued by how the aluminum frame effects the skin of these units, what is the science behind it. We see the results, not the why.

You notice there is no horizontal bracing around cut-outs (window and vent openings) this is typical cougar construction as witnessed in there build facilities. The side walls are glued together, the rear is not, yet the frame shows through. Interesting.

This post has not offered a lot of support, it appears there is little or no support from dealers or manufactures with fading issues. I fear for my unit in a couple of years.

My brother in law has a 14 year old Jayco that sees the light of day about 6 days a year and gets an annual wax job. It could pass for new!

The pictures were taken in the afternoon when I got home from work, so definitely no dew involved LOL

I guess that is the whole concept behind the "Helium" technology behind these so-called lite units! Less framing means less weight.

If I could I would park it inside a building, but I don't have that option so it has to sit outside in our backyard, which is a hell of a lot better then sitting in a compound 20 miles away from our place, having to deal with theft issues, rodent issues to name a few possible problems.

[gregrc75]

I can understand your disappointment. I have a 2011 Keystone Premier travel trailer that I will have had for 6 years this month. It has the full body paint exterior. I wash it frequently and I wax it a minimum of 3 times a year. I just discovered this week that some of the clearcoat on the front cap, high up top, is starting to peel. I have to remember it is 6 years old and parked outside, but I do maintain the finish. For now, I did a temporary fix by buffing the area, sanding and recoating with 4 coats of clearcoat. Hopefully that will at least halt the degradation.

[JRTJH]

Just "thinking out loud" here, but I wonder if the shadowing is a result of pollution/contamination in the air coupled with the "ghosting caused by dew" that causes moisture to collect on the areas where the aluminum framework underlies the FILON skin? If the temperature and dewpoint are right, water will collect on the skin every morning. If the water has some type of contaminates in it that would stain the FILON and if the sun bakes those contaminates into the FILON, then it's entirely possible that over a period of years of that happening, there's going to be "gray areas" on the FILON that can't be removed. Just as "rusty tap water" will eventually leave a rust spot under the faucet in the bath tub, the above may be a reason for the "ghosting" you see on your trailer.

That doesn't help you with fixing the problem, but might offer at least an explanation on why it happened. I don't know whether it's a unique situation caused by where you live and what's in the atmosphere there, but I do know that the rainwater in south Louisiana will guarantee rust formation on anything over a period of a year or two. Just the contaminates from fireplaces, the salt from the Gulf and the pollution from "people living" is enough to cause the rainwater to create "acid rain" which will rust away anything it sits on.

Might be your problem is something similar. How to fix it? No idea, but it might not be "Keystone's fault" that it happened......

[Rusty]

JRTJH, seeing as we live on the Canadian Prairies we don't have as far as I know those issues, we live backing onto the wide open Prairies. The problem I believe has to do with the finish of the fiberglass, and/or the gelcoat. We do have the most "sun time" here in Canada, meaning we have more sunny days then everywhere else in Canada.

One of my main issues is with the protection package that we purchased, when I bought up the protection issue at the PDI it was told to me don't worry the finish will last for years, then when an issue came up it was told to me that because I didn't bring it in for the protection I screwed up, even tho the dealer told me NOT to worry about it.
Stealer says one thing and Keystone says another, so I am screwed, I have to pay another $3000 - 5000 may be more to have a more semi permanent fix.

If Keystone had of had the proper finish on these trailers we wouldn't have to be out of pocket of such an amount!

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[JRTJH]

While I do hope you find a reasonable solution to your problem, you allude to purchasing a "protection package" (apparently from your dealer) and that he and you had a discussion on the length of protection it would provide. You must realize that Keystone DOES NOT sell an aftermarket protection package and they have absolutely nothing to do with your contracted arrangement between you and the dealership.

It's interesting to note that you discount any personal responsibility for this problem ("we live on the Canadian Prairies we don't have as far as I know those issues") and you refer to your dealer as the "stealership" and "the stealer". With that type of relationship, it's really no wonder that they aren't "fully in your corner"... The problem, from what you've described, is not a Keystone issue, rather it's a problem between you and the dealer who sold you an aftermarket appearance "insurance policy". If you and that entity have a disagreement about what that "insurance policy" protects, you might want to actually read the small print.

Again, that's not a Keystone "inferior materials quality" problem or we'd have thousands of Keystone owners complaining at the 5 or 6 year of ownership with the same thing. We don't see that on this forum and I don't see that on the other RV forums that I frequent. It really seems to be an isolated situation, caused by something other than Keystone's selection of FILON suppliers.

I might add, as an observation, in the photos you posted, there is a significant amount of dirt on the refrigerator vents, the ladder rungs, the spare tire cover and the rear bumper. If that dirt sits on those surfaces, gets wet and "sun-baked" into the finish, it's not surprising that the surface would not remain "like new" for an extended period of time.

I personally don't see this as a "Keystone quality problem" but rather as an issue on a 6 year old trailer that wasn't protected from the elements with a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of what some "aftermarket appearance protection policy" would do to enhance the longevity of the trailer's surface.

ADDED: I agree, Keystone "could" use better quality components in their trailer, but that would increase the cost significantly and likely price the RV's they produce out of the competitive market. That would do nothing to enhance "quality" nor would it make the trailers made by Keystone's competition any better. Building RV's is a very "thin line" between adding and mixing products that are reliable and still affordable. If Keystone bought "million dollar FILON" to put on the current Cougar trailers, what would that do to enhance longevity of the axles, appliances, roof? Would it be cost effective for them to build a trailer with FILON that lasted for 20 years on a trailer that has a refrigerator that only lasts 5 years on the average? Would any of us pay an extra 3 or 4 thousand dollars for that "better FILON" ? Every RV manufacturer dances to the "economic music" of what consumers will pay before they buy the competition. As a note, there is one FILON manufacturer in the Goshen area. All of the trailer manufacturers buy and install the same FILON on their trailers. You won't find any other brand that has "better FILON". There are some differences in front/rear cap finishes, but FILON only comes in one type. They all use the same stuff.

Just my views, I'm sure the flames will start ramping up any time now.

[Rusty]

I do take a certain amount of blame, sorry if I misrepresented myself. I asked point blank about bringing it in for the reapplication of the protection package, and I trusted what the dealer stated to me, and I trusted that a manufacturer could build a unit that could last more then 3 years. I said I wash it 2-3 times a year, and I did what was supposed to be done with waxing it in Sept last fall, now 10 months later it is just as bad if not worse.

Your points are well taken.

So I guess I am to blame 100 % because I trusted others, that's my fault.

[Rusty]

BTW the trailer is a 2013, we have had it only 4 years, not 6 as you stated, big difference. And I noticed the fading last summer, fully 3 years after purchase.

[sourdough]

The situation the OP has is unfortunate, but not uncommon. From my vantage point it appears that the OP, and the dealer, are primarily at fault here. I would say Keystone but the issues with their (and every other trailer manufacturer) gelcoat exteriors is well known and has been discussed no end. In the end, the exterior from the factory is what it is and we all are aware and have to take whatever measures are required to keep the exterior from fading. I keep mine in an enclosed storage facility. I've also had the front cap repainted and clearcoated. Some have other kinds of covers and some use the cloth covers - ALL to prevent the known fading issues associated with RV exteriors. If you don't take some kind of action you WILL experience fading in a few years.

Whatever the exterior protection package was it is the owner's responsibility to read it and abide by it. The dealer has no obligation other than to respond to your requests to follow the guidelines of the coverage. Can/does a dealer give you bad info or advice? That answer is yes and well known. Once they sell you the product (exterior coverage) and take your money their obligation is over - it's then all on the owner and his willingness to study the coverage and abide by its rules and know its limitations. That's one of the reasons so many shun any kind of extended coverage, finish warranties etc. My new SUV came with an exterior finish package to the tune of $499 (which I could not get removed). The tube of "stuff" appears to be just some sort of wax (they call it a lusterizer). For the coverage to be effective I have to wax the vehicle 2-3 times per year with the "lusterizer". The tube is enough for one application. I'm sure you can see the squeeze here. I can wax the vehicle once a year and the finish will be good for as long as I own it....probably wouldn't have to do it at all since it lives in a garage. It's just a back door way to make more money (buying their special lusterizer) every few months. Same as your exterior protection package.

Again, it's unfortunate and I feel for you, but I think Keystone is probably at the bottom of the list of the responsible parties - although I would truly love for them to put a finish on their trailers equivalent to an automotive finish. At the end of the day an RV is a toy; it depreciates daily and seemingly costs money every time you look at it. We just have to recognize it for what it is and be happy

[Rusty]

I do take a certain amount of blame here.

I just want to reiterate that that they should make a product that lasts more then 3 years.

As we used to say in the Army......carry on.

[JRTJH]

No, I don't think anyone would say that you're to blame 100%. But I do believe that anyone who is reasonable would realize that your trailer is built using the same FILON as all the rest and that it's not Keystone's failure to produce your specific trailer to standards that are the same as the one before it and the one after it on the assembly line. The FILON is the "industry standard" and is exactly the same as hundreds of thousands of trailers currently on the market. It's not "inferior product" if there are only 9 or 10 that have the problem out of all that are on the road.

I really believe that it's a situation of assuming some "magic potion" applied by the dealer (at an extra cost) would protect your trailer, a failure to understand the "insurance policy" that you bought (appearance package) and a bit of bad luck (where you park and how the sun bakes your trailer and what lays on the surface).

ADDED: It's more the expectation you have that what you paid extra for at purchase, what the seller promised you that extra purchase would do for you and what you received, based on the current problem is not what you were led to expect. It's a failure of that appearance package, not a failure of the FILON that Keystone installed.

Honestly, none of that is a "Keystone quality" problem. In fact, if it were, we'd have significantly more people complaining of FILON ghosting on this forum and on many other trailer forums. It's unfortunate that anyone has to have this happen, but Keystone, in Goshen, is far removed from the problems you face. It's not Keystone that created the "perfect storm" that caused your problem. If it was, somehow, Keystone that did it, we'd have a forum full of FILON complaints. Look around, you're the first one that I can recall in at least the last 5 years to complain of "ghosting" above the Aluminum framework.

This is not intended to minimize your problem and hopefully you'll find a reasonable solution, but you honestly can't say that we should all pay an extra $1000 (or more) so Keystone can "buy better FILON" (which doesn't exist) so the very few who have problems can, somehow not have that problem and we can all "feel Keystone solved a quality problem (that isn't frequent enough to have heard about in the past 5 years).......

[JRTJH]

I just did a quick Amazon product search and came up with a product made my Meguiar's that might help:

https://www.amazon.com/Meguiars-M491...1V5JZX0G7&th=1

There's a review done by an Outback (made by Keystone) owner that shows some impressive results. No guarantees, I don't work for Meguair's, Amazon and I haven't used the product, but it might help ????