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Old 05-26-2016, 03:47 AM   #41
NotyetMHCowner
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Originally Posted by BlueThunder34 View Post
How much simpler it would be if we all just bought TVs that were adequate to SAFELY tow our trailers, instead of buying something too big for what we have and then try to justify why it's ok because of this or that. The yellow sticker is the legal rating no matter what someone believes their truck can handle. Heck I've seen the Tundra commercial towing the space shuttle so it must be ok to tow anything you or I could buy, right
You bring up a good point, we see so many commercials even for duallys, that show how much they can tow. Even so that 1/2 ton truck wouldn't last more than a year or two pulling 11,500. People start thinking they can pull anything with such a small truck.

I see people buying $50k+ campers and towing them with $50k+ trucks (that are over loaded) and act like they "can't" trade up into a more suitable truck. BS!

I love the peace of mind towing our fiver with our dually. There is no sway, no squatting, no fear of losing control because of being overloaded or having 2 few tires in the rear.
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Old 05-26-2016, 07:27 AM   #42
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Sooooo

My sticker inside my door says my axles are rated over my GVWR. My tires can handle more than the axle rating, as well as my wheels. Obviously the manufacture says the truck is good for the axle ratings. That means the whole messy situation is something the gubment forced on us again, so we're not "commercial". We all know how anything gubment comes up with works out. :
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Old 05-26-2016, 09:44 AM   #43
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I'm sure some airbags and stiffer tires and he'll be just fine.
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Old 05-26-2016, 09:47 AM   #44
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Exceeding any of the ratings the manufacturer has placed on the vehicle can place you at risk. None of us know why they rate things as they do but we know that each component was given a maximum rating for some reason. It could be as simple as extending the life of the component itself or as serious as creating a life threatening overload. Unless you worked on the engineering team that placed those limits you will not know which is which.
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:07 AM   #45
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Exceeding any of the ratings the manufacturer has placed on the vehicle can place you at risk. None of us know why they rate things as they do but we know that each component was given a maximum rating for some reason. It could be as simple as extending the life of the component itself or as serious as creating a life threatening overload. Unless you worked on the engineering team that placed those limits you will not know which is which.
You are right on, and I'm willing to bet that the majority on here do not have the engineering background and degree to accurately debate the true reality of how much over their manufacturers ratings they can safely tow. Is this a heated subject? Yes, for me it is because I have personally responded and cared for those who paid the price of catastrophic failure when a triple axel 5er attached to 3/4 ton turned on its side taking out a loaded Honda Civic with it. Very rare I'm sure but for those involved it was all too real.
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:13 PM   #46
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Exceeding any of the ratings the manufacturer has placed on the vehicle can place you at risk. None of us know why they rate things as they do but we know that each component was given a maximum rating for some reason. It could be as simple as extending the life of the component itself or as serious as creating a life threatening overload. Unless you worked on the engineering team that placed those limits you will not know which is which.
We DOOOOOOOOOOOOO know where the 10,000 lb rating came from though, on a 3/4 ton truck. It came from the DOT not the engineer. The axle ratings came from the engineer. Its simple math folks, things don't add up. Again does anything the government runs add up? I know my proposed lower OBAMA care premium, went UP 400% from what I had, not down. Should I still believe everything the government does as gospel? Now I know the OP is over the axles and needs a bigger truck but in some cases these 3/4 ton trucks are severely mismatched.
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:35 PM   #47
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Regardless of "where the 10,000 pound weight rating came from, what DOT decides to say/do, or what any of us "think we should do", it really pretty much boils down to following the manufacturer's guide and not violating the warnings in the owner's manual. I'd strongly suspect that no matter if a "tech writer", a "marketing specialist" or a "monkey" wrote the owner's manual, "somebody of importance" in the engineering department had to "sign off" on it before it was published.

Here's one warning from the 2015 Ford F250/350/450/550 Owner's Manual:

"Do not exceed the GVWR or
the GAWR specified on the
Safety Compliance Certification
Label."


You can find this warning on page 191 in the "TOWING" section. Ford doesn't give owners the option of "choosing GAWR" or "choosing GVWR" and "playing a game of "which one will give the most payload"... Ford simply says "don't exceed the GVWR or the GAWR. So both limits are applicable, regardless of what DOT says, what we "think" or what somebody's brother in law did last week.

It's truly a personal decision that each person has to make, and as long as "nothing serious happens", in all likelihood, nobody will ever be the wiser....

But, if someone does have a serious accident, injures their family or someone else's family, and the investigation reveals that the operator of the vehicle was overloaded, (your choice if whether it's DOT regulations, manufacturer's requirements, state registration documents or, any other document that makes the "overloaded claim", you can bet that it will come up in a civil and/or a criminal court, assuming that someone who was injured hires a lawyer.

I prefer to "control my own destiny" not leave it vulnerable for anyone who can find a loophole in a document to "nail me to the wall".........

So, I'll follow the manufacturer's warning as well as the multiple other requirements.

This is my "opinion" (we all have one): There are enough people out there "looking for a free ride at anybody's expense" that I don't want to "bull-headedly" give them a "free ticket" to my savings account and the keys to everything I've worked for.
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:08 PM   #48
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Regardless of "where the 10,000 pound weight rating came from, what DOT decides to say/do, or what any of us "think we should do", it really pretty much boils down to following the manufacturer's guide and not violating the warnings in the owner's manual. I'd strongly suspect that no matter if a "tech writer", a "marketing specialist" or a "monkey" wrote the owner's manual, "somebody of importance" in the engineering department had to "sign off" on it before it was published.

Here's one warning from the 2015 Ford F250/350/450/550 Owner's Manual:

"Do not exceed the GVWR or
the GAWR specified on the
Safety Compliance Certification
Label."


You can find this warning on page 191 in the "TOWING" section. Ford doesn't give owners the option of "choosing GAWR" or "choosing GVWR" and "playing a game of "which one will give the most payload"... Ford simply says "don't exceed the GVWR or the GAWR. So both limits are applicable, regardless of what DOT says, what we "think" or what somebody's brother in law did last week.

It's truly a personal decision that each person has to make, and as long as "nothing serious happens", in all likelihood, nobody will ever be the wiser....

But, if someone does have a serious accident, injures their family or someone else's family, and the investigation reveals that the operator of the vehicle was overloaded, (your choice if whether it's DOT regulations, manufacturer's requirements, state registration documents or, any other document that makes the "overloaded claim", you can bet that it will come up in a civil and/or a criminal court, assuming that someone who was injured hires a lawyer.

I prefer to "control my own destiny" not leave it vulnerable for anyone who can find a loophole in a document to "nail me to the wall".........

So, I'll follow the manufacturer's warning as well as the multiple other requirements.

This is my "opinion" (we all have one): There are enough people out there "looking for a free ride at anybody's expense" that I don't want to "bull-headedly" give them a "free ticket" to my savings account and the keys to everything I've worked for.
Please stop... Just stop.....

Are you an attorney? Are you offering legal advice???

STOP SPECULATING THAT YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT MAY OCCUR.....

If you want to advise people that it's a "good idea" to follow manufacturer recommendations... Feel free to do so...

BUT STOP IMPLYING THAT WEIGHT AND MANUFACTURER RATING MAY HAVE INFLUENCE IN DETERMINING NEGLIGENCE.... You're stating it as if it is a fact and creating a false narrative.

Human action in a specific situation determines negligence....

JUST STOP GIVING LEGAL OPINIONS.
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:27 PM   #49
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Please stop... Just stop.....

Are you an attorney? Are you offering legal advice???

STOP SPECULATING THAT YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT MAY OCCUR.....

If you want to advise people that it's a "good idea" to follow manufacturer recommendations... Feel free to do so...

BUT STOP IMPLYING THAT WEIGHT AND MANUFACTURER RATING MAY HAVE INFLUENCE IN DETERMINING NEGLIGENCE.... You're stating it as if it is a fact and creating a false narrative.

Human action in a specific situation determines negligence....

JUST STOP GIVING LEGAL OPINIONS.
If you wish to not follow this thread, or not read my posts, you're certainly free to completely ignore my opinions and my statements. Thankfully, we do live in a "free society" and I don't see the need to "not say what I think" because you don't think I should. I do hope you have a super day and a wonderful weekend!!!

And I do still maintain that FORD has that warning in the owner's manual for a reason. If you choose not to follow it, so be it.
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:43 PM   #50
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"Human action in a specific situation determines negligence".

Knowingly exceeding the manufacturers stated MAXIMUM weights on any vehicle is negligence......period. That's not legal advice, just fact. In a court, with a prosecutor or civil attorney determining how they want to drive the tack so to speak, it can also be considered intent.

No need for legal advice in this debate; on one hand you have the law, which in every state I've lived in limits you to the maximum weights determined by the manufacturer on a vehicle OR weights dictated in state law that outline maximums for gcvwr, length, number of trailers etc., and on the other hand is what you choose to do with that law; abide by it or violate it.....not legal advice, just facts. Choosing to pick a weight for registration purposes (where that is allowed) because you want to save money or tow more than you should does not, and will not, trump the weight placard the manufacturer put on the vehicle.

No one here is trying to give legal advice; just thoughtful, COMMON SENSE advice. The last place you want to be is in a lawyers office seeking legal advice because you've been charged with vehicular manslaughter or negligent homicide. Wouldn't it just be best to make sure your equipment met all the legal guidelines so the charges of "intent" and "negligence" couldn't come at you instead of breaking all the rules hoping for the best and hoping you won't get caught; or kill yourself or someone else?? Sort of like the guy that liked to jump into the freeway in front of oncoming traffic - he was quicker, no one would hit him, it's a game. When he finally got splattered his family carried on about why the driver didn't slow down or swerve to miss him - he was a good kid. What?? He dodged the bullet quite a few times but it finally got him....he got what was coming and he should have known it.

As one of our members posted earlier in this thread; those that feel personal responsibility and act upon it are dwindling at a rapid rate. To tow overweight is an intentional act, it's illegal and it's irresponsible. If you do those things you don't want me on a jury if you happen to cause some terrible thing where I live.
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Old 05-26-2016, 03:36 PM   #51
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What point that JRTJH and sourdough are trying to get across to folks. Who tow overload by the tow and load specs listed by their tow vehicle's manufacture is the possibility or "the what if" that can happen to that operator in the CIVIL legal system and also the CRIMINAL legal system. If the operator would be involved in a crash, wreck or accident "what ever you want to call it" while overloaded and towing on the roadways/byways.

Yes there is a possibility that the said operator of the overloaded vehicle can be held liable in both a criminal and civil courts of law. Plus the possibility to be held liable in a Civil court is so much easier because all the plaintiff (that’s the person who says he was injured by the overloaded RV Operator) has to have is preponderance of evidence. This is a whole different can of worms than the "beyond a shadow of a doubt" used in criminal cases which most people know from all the cop shows on TV.

Basically at the end of a civil case A v. B, 51% of the evidence favors A. Thus, A has a preponderance of the evidence, A has met their burden of proof, and A will win the case.

This is just some food for thought.

Do what you want but if you get caught and the crap goes against you don't cry like a third grade girl getting her pigtails pulled.
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Old 05-26-2016, 04:33 PM   #52
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Folks, even when you do everything 100% right and follow all laws and still have a incident or a crash happens. If you kill or cause major injury to other persons including those in your vehicle. Even if you have great insurance, you will likely be sued if you own anything. If you give the other side a inch by driving 5 over the speed limit or 1000 lbs over weight. They will take a mile. I have a few stories of real nice people who were 100% right and they still had years of civil suits that will drain your pocket book and might destroy your health. I am not saying you will loose a suit, even when you win it can be a life changing event. I have been sued thru my work and listed in about 8 lawsuits, they start at wanting 200,000 from each person they list.
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:10 PM   #53
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Folks, even when you do everything 100% follow all laws and still a incident or crash happens. If you kill or cause major injury to other persons including those in your vehicle. Even if you have great insurance, you will likely be sued if you own anything. If you give the other side a inch by driving 5 over the speed limit or 1000 lbs over weight. They will take a mile. I have a few stories of real nice people who were 100% and they still had years of civil suits that will drain your pocket book and might destroy your health.
I guess that's what those of us that have experience with this are trying to tell those that just don't care. I know several folks whose lives have been destroyed by negligence, bending the rules, or...just didn't care. One made almost 1m a year; now, he has to get a car from the "buy here, pay here" guys, lives in a little apartment and there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Wrong choice ;wrong time. The JUDGE sentenced him.

Another; had all his life in front of him. I came across a woman drunk out of her mind sitting across the railroad tracks (back when they came thru at 70 mph - I was 16). I was going to try to get her to her family about 70 miles away. My friend insisted he do it and took her away with me in the back seat (her car). Outside her destination we encountered a traffic circle (I was asleep in the back seat), he chose to drive too fast, not pay attention and was too involved trying to mess with the poor lady (I think). He went right into the circle, hit a Ford Galaxy 500 square in the side with 5 people in it. I woke up to screaming from the Ford; everyone in our car (a Cadillac) was silent. My head was wedged between the front seat and the side of the car. I had been knocked out but managed to get my head out. I pushed my door open and fell out to see people hanging out of the doors of the Ford in various stages of damage and dismemberment. A car stopped and I told them I thought everyone in my car was dead....they looked at me and sped away.

My friend that had wanted to drive was stuck in the windshield; plastered there. The lady I wanted to "save" was lifeless in the middle of the front seat; her neck was broken. A hoped for good deed gone terribly wrong.

The friend sort of bottomed out. He ended up hanging himself in a jail cell.

I started that mess. I only wanted good BUT I let someone that had always bent the rules take control....and he bent them, and he, I, she, our families and our futures all paid the price. Is there any sane reason why anyone would want to do that to themselves, their families, their WIFE or KIDS, or others due to negligence, not dotting the I's and Ts.....just not caring?? If you do, I just don't get it.
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Old 05-26-2016, 06:09 PM   #54
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All this is, is a bunch of he said she said BS, until someone can prove with a link a court case, where a 3/4 ton 10,000 lb truck was over GVWR but under axle ratings and under GCWR and had an accident, and was taken to the cleaners by a DA, or Insurance Company. Now I understand if your over GCWR and axle ratings you are negligent, and deserve what you get. But this "those that feel personal responsibility and act upon it are dwindling at a rapid rate. To tow overweight is an intentional act, it's illegal and it's irresponsible. If you do those things you don't want me on a jury if you happen to cause some terrible thing where I live." is just irresponsible if you were a juror that you can not use common sense, that is what America is missing these days. The last thing we need is more damn lawyers. More shooting line executions for real criminals yes, lawyers no.


http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/

How do those payloads, max towing line up between 3500 and 2500 folks? School MeSTIR POT


I will beat the dead horse, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING, buuuttt it the #'s don't line up with a 3/4 ton truck.
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Old 05-26-2016, 06:37 PM   #55
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All this is, is a bunch of he said she said BS, until someone can prove with a link a court case, where a 3/4 ton 10,000 lb truck was over GVWR but under axle ratings and under GCWR and had an accident, and was taken to the cleaners by a DA, or Insurance Company. Now I understand if your over GCWR and axle ratings you are negligent, and deserve what you get. But this "those that feel personal responsibility and act upon it are dwindling at a rapid rate. To tow overweight is an intentional act, it's illegal and it's irresponsible. If you do those things you don't want me on a jury if you happen to cause some terrible thing where I live." is just irresponsible if you were a juror that you can not use common sense, that is what America is missing these days. The last thing we need is more damn lawyers. More shooting line executions for real criminals yes, lawyers no.


http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/


How do those payloads, max towing line up between 3500 and 2500 folks? School MeSTIR POT


I will beat the dead horse, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING, buuuttt it the #'s don't line up with a 3/4 ton truck.
WHAT!!!

It's already been stated that if you are under either the gvw or gawr of the vehicle things should not go south.

"those that feel personal responsibility and act upon it are dwindling at a rapid rate. To tow overweight is an intentional act, it's illegal and it's irresponsible. If you do those things you don't want me on a jury if you happen to cause some terrible thing where I live." is just irresponsible if you were a juror that you can not use common sense, that is what America is missing these days. The last thing we need is more damn lawyers. More shooting line executions for real criminals yes, lawyers ""

Hmmmm... The folks that actually feel responsibility and act on it is dwindling"....that's a fact, if you don't see or know that then ??

To tow overweight is an intentional act, it's illegal it's irresponsible.....hmmm, just fact and common sense.

If you do those things and I'm on the jury etc...... but it's irresponsible if I take those things into account????? Common sense IS the deciding factor!! You don't need more lawyers, you need more folks with common sense that follow the law!!

Your link is meaningless. What the sticker says is what the sticker says. I'm not sure I'm here to "school" you; that's on you and you probably need to "study up". Your vehement reply indicates that you probably don't fit into the "legal" category and need "vindication" for what you're doing??
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Old 05-26-2016, 07:26 PM   #56
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My direct case of over GVWR and death was about 1995. I-5 Wilsnoville Or. Driver had a either a 3/4 or 1 ton pulling a backhoe. Traveling at least 65. Vehicle speed tests back than showed a min speed but, would normally speeds were higher. As I recall backhoe and trailer was around 20,000 lbs. It has been a few years so, not all this is 100% fact. I think it was 4,000 lbs over max. The trailer brakes either did not work or not did work correctly. He hit stopped traffic and killed 3 of 4 in a car. I did part of the investigation a specialist did the vehicle spec tests. The civil case ended about 2001 when I was out of patrol as a det. The driver owned a farm before the crash not after the case was over. I was told that the other investigator.
I cannot image any trooper on here that has not seem this stuff. Our office did investigate those types of crashes. I heard about some but, not involved.
News stories of crashes will never include facts of vehicle problems that must be examined after obtaining search warrants and days or weeks after to crash to get the information and report done. Ask your local state police or highway patrol about this type of case. The news stories are normally a few basic facts and say the investigation is continuing. Ever hear that. Ever hear the end of that story. Unless you were involved not likely.
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Old 05-26-2016, 07:29 PM   #57
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WHAT!!!

It's already been stated that if you are under either the gvw or gawr of the vehicle things should not go south.

"those that feel personal responsibility and act upon it are dwindling at a rapid rate. To tow overweight is an intentional act, it's illegal and it's irresponsible. If you do those things you don't want me on a jury if you happen to cause some terrible thing where I live." is just irresponsible if you were a juror that you can not use common sense, that is what America is missing these days. The last thing we need is more damn lawyers. More shooting line executions for real criminals yes, lawyers ""

Hmmmm... The folks that actually feel responsibility and act on it is dwindling"....that's a fact, if you don't see or know that then ??

To tow overweight is an intentional act, it's illegal it's irresponsible.....hmmm, just fact and common sense.

If you do those things and I'm on the jury etc...... but it's irresponsible if I take those things into account????? Common sense IS the deciding factor!! You don't need more lawyers, you need more folks with common sense that follow the law!!

Your link is meaningless. What the sticker says is what the sticker says. I'm not sure I'm here to "school" you; that's on you and you probably need to "study up". Your vehement reply indicates that you probably don't fit into the "legal" category and need "vindication" for what you're doing??
SOOOO those numbers mean chit, and your unwillingness to even look at them and make a COMMON SENSE DECISION make me irresponsible, thick headed and dumb..... 1+1=1 Wait that didn't add up. I don't need vindication for what I'm doing. Take me into a scale with a DOT officer and have at it. STIR POT

Base Truck 7800
GVWR 10000
Payload 2200
GCWR 25300
Max Tow 17030
RAWR 6000
FAWR 5750
Real World Payload 6000+5750=11750-7800=3950

Soooo as long as the trucks under 11750 and combined under 25300

I pull not anywhere near that. DOT scales by the axle. Let them explain to the courts why they didn't park me for going over the arbitrary 10000 GVWR.

Wait, what I solved that with common core math even.

NOW which bathroom shall I use?
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Old 05-26-2016, 07:34 PM   #58
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My direct case of over GVWR and death was about 1995. I-5 Wilsnoville Or. Driver had a either a 3/4 or 1 ton pulling a backhoe. Traveling at least 65. Vehicle speed tests back than showed a min speed but, would normally speeds were higher. As I recall backhoe and trailer was around 20,000 lbs. It has been a few years so, not all this is 100% fact. I think it was 4,000 lbs over max. The trailer brakes either did not work or not did work correctly. He hit stopped traffic and killed 3 of 4 in a car. I did part of the investigation a specialist did the vehicle spec tests. The civil case ended about 2001 when I was out of patrol as a det. The driver owned a farm before the crash not after the case was over. I was told that the other investigator.
I cannot image any trooper on here that has not seem this stuff.
That is a common sense case. He was well over the GCWR and axles rating. I AGREE WITH THIS, he should have lost the farm, I'm not arguing those type of cases.
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Old 05-26-2016, 07:36 PM   #59
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""All this is, is a bunch of he said she said BS""

This from a previous post and one from one that unfortunately pulls an RV...overweight? Family in tow? The poster IS the picture of why we are all in danger of those that think that weights and "laws" are a "suggestion".
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Old 05-26-2016, 08:02 PM   #60
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SOOOO those numbers mean chit, and your unwillingness to even look at them and make a COMMON SENSE DECISION make me irresponsible, thick headed and dumb..... 1+1=1 Wait that didn't add up. I don't need vindication for what I'm doing. Take me into a scale with a DOT officer and have at it. STIR POT

Base Truck 7800
GVWR 10000
Payload 2200
GCWR 25300
Max Tow 17030
RAWR 6000
FAWR 5750
Real World Payload 6000+5750=11750-7800=3950

Soooo as long as the trucks under 11750 and combined under 25300

I pull not anywhere near that. DOT scales by the axle. Let them explain to the courts why they didn't park me for going over the arbitrary 10000 GVWR.

Wait, what I solved that with common core math even.

NOW which bathroom shall I use?

Well, It's pretty obvious you can't follow the thread (which again worries thinking folks about your pulling anything more than a U haul trailer).

It has been stated in this thread that you are limited by your vehicle/trailer weights listed for your gvw OR your gawr - your comments about this and that are meaningless.

Sooooo, my truck has a gawr of 12500 and a gvw of 10000. The sticker says my vehicle CANNOT weigh more than 10k. Now, my sticker says my axles say more. In the event of a catastrophic event, in which you, your family and everything you own (your future) is in the balance, do you, as a (hopefully) thinking person, think that a judge, or jury, is going to pick "your " side of the argument - who picks gawr vs gvw - it won't be you? If you're that kind of gambling person I guess you can put you, your family and others at risk....because........??
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