Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Fleet | Keystone RV Models > Toy Haulers
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-15-2017, 02:44 PM   #1
twvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
Air conditioners only hold low 80's on Fuzion 420

Ironically don't use AC much here in AZ as mostly up north in summer but got my first chance to use it recently. I was on shore power and both AC's ran all day. Temps were 90-92 outside with not any shade/clouds and my thermos in living room and garage (literally two feet away from each other) were reading high 80's. Felt a little cooler than this so put a thermometer in kitchen and it was about 82-84. I thought with ducted A/C's I would still be good but one is at very end of rig in garage and other is at very front in master bedroom so now see it as an issue with placement. I did have the garage, bedroom, and bathroom doors wide open to try and get some flow to living/kitchen. At first the main vent on these were not open (seems would direct more to the ducts) and was even worse so temps listed are after opening these up. The air was good and cold but just too much trailer/not much bulk air coming out all the ducts. So, the center of trailer (living/kitchen) were not very comfortable. Maybe I should have got the option for 3 but then there is the whole issue of which two are running as max at once per my understanding. Anyone else experiencing this?
__________________
- '16 Fuzion Chrome 420
- '15 RAM 3500 SRW 4x4 Aisin Crew
- '17 Maverick X3 RS
twvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2017, 08:52 PM   #2
Rick52
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: apple valley ca
Posts: 28
My 2016 fz371 does the same thing my ac's are in the bedroom and the loft area and ducted. It's hitting a high 90's in So. Cal right now and I played with mine yesterday. I checked the ducts for proper seal throughout and all seemed like they were doing the best they could. I really think there are just too many losses in the the walls and windows for these kind of temps. It's not a house with dual pain windows and 6inch walls..... It feels better than outside and for camping what else can you expect....
Rick52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2017, 06:56 AM   #3
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,839
Rick52 has touched on the biggest consideration about air conditioning in RV's. That's energy use and insulation. Going to Lowes.com and looking at window air conditioners, an 8000 BTU unit is rated to cool 350 square feet of space and a 15000 BTU unit is rated to cool 850 square feet of space. Even with slides, the biggest RV's are less than 500 square feet and most 30 to 35 foot RV's are around 300 square feet of floor space. Even with 30,000 BTU's of capacity, many RV's are "hot inside when in the sun". It's "difficult to understand" why such a small space doesn't cool well until you consider that the walls are R-9 and the ceiling/floor are typically not much more insulated than that. Then consider that the "roof A/C ducting" runs directly under the 3/8" roof membrane/decking (with virtually no insulation on that R4 foam ductwork which is being bombarded with the sun's heat, and the roof is often too hot to touch or to walk on with bare feet with that ductwork "less than 1" under it. It's a miracle that we get any cooling at all. With 2" wall construction, 5" roof construction and 1" slide construction, single pane windows that are "overly large to give a sense of bigger interior space, you can only get so much "heat resistance".

Should we be able to cool better? It would be wonderful, and how we position the RV (shade, big walls not facing east or west, etc) makes a significant difference, as does the color of the RV. But if you could imagine putting a window unit air conditioner in one end of a 8x20 vinyl tent pavilion, blowing into the space, imagine the BTU's it would take to make that dark green tent feel comfortable.... I wonder if the A/C in that tent would cycle off/on much differently than our RV? ie: run almost continuously. RV's are better insulated than that tent, but when compared to a "S&B" structure, not by much.

I don't think we'll ever see an "energy star" rating on an RV. It's just the nature of a "temporary house" that is so "under-insulated and uses so much energy to try to make it comfortable"....

When you get right down to "brass tacks", the "carbon footprint" for one of our RV's isn't that much "less impressive" than the "carbon footprint" from Al Gore's private jet.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2017, 08:42 AM   #4
twvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
Thanks for the detailed info. Its just a bummer that nobody else in my my group with similar sized fifth wheels was having problems cooling theirs and their A/C's were actually cycling vs mine running non-stop. This was even with all shades down and nobody going in/out during day. Mine is black and lots of windows compared to the others so know that can be a big difference but was hoping if has the "Blizzard" package it could also insulate better than other much lower end models. Its manageable just expecting more and its even a downgrade from my old Weekend Warrior AC abilities. I do have to say the bedroom was plenty cool but it was the only cool area ... still good as that is really about the only place I truly care when trying to fall asleep to be a bit below 80. Going to try some fans to get some circulation next time.
__________________
- '16 Fuzion Chrome 420
- '15 RAM 3500 SRW 4x4 Aisin Crew
- '17 Maverick X3 RS
twvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2017, 09:45 AM   #5
PARAPTOR
Site Team | Emeritus
 
PARAPTOR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Western PA
Posts: 2,732
Just to add to John's post, many a time our rigs are also sitting on hard surface slabs like concrete ensuring that we get heat from all around. This heat sink will continue to provide continued heat as the sun goes down. at least on my Raptor and I think on most TH that garage area is not a covered belly area. Basically the back side of the garage floor is the outside. So I think this is another reason that garage is harder to cool. The R rating of the floors in the other areas of my Raptor are in the high 30s.

My walls are R9 and ceiling if I recall in high 30s like maybe R39. think these R values help me survive with one AC.

Another big asset is my large paddle Fan, cooling the air is one thing moving it is another. My unit is white which again helps. As I stated in a previous post after examining and repairing all tapped interfaces in the AC system, I noticed a big difference. My registers are the type that shoot air along the ceiling rather than straight down
__________________
2013 RAPTOR 300MP w/Rear Patio Deck NO Folding Side Ladder
2013 Silverado 3500HD LTZ CC LB 4X4 DRW
Duramax 6.6L Turbo Diesel; Allison Trans
Reese 20K; Carlisle Radial Trail RH/HD; TPMS (12 Tires)

Veteran


PSU (GO LIONS)
PARAPTOR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 03:55 PM   #6
mbjam359
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Texas
Posts: 10
AC

We have a Raptor 412RP. We have 2 ac one in the bedroom and one in the living area. The Br cools down rather quickly and it takes a while for the living area. The living area will cycle in the evening but stays on for the most part of the day. With the technology we have it surprises me this is the way it is. The dark colored coaches look really nice but its got to be harder to cool them. I was thinking today a plain white coach might be the way to go.
mbjam359 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 05:42 PM   #7
pawpaw
Senior Member
 
pawpaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Lockport, Louisiana
Posts: 435
We have a Fuzion 371 with the blizzard package and it was comfortable this weekend even in South Louisiana...temps were in the low 90's with high humidity and it was actually too cold for me!
__________________
2021 Ford Expedition FX4 with max towing. 33" BFG KO2's 4 point Equalizer hitch.
2022 Cougar 25RDS
pawpaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-18-2017, 06:36 PM   #8
BirchyBoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Colorful Colorado
Posts: 798
Have you checked the air filters and looked for any obstructions in the ducts?
__________________
Current:
'17 Winnebago Vista 31BE / Wife, pesky Eski and loco Toto dog
Former:
'15 Open Range 256BHS / '05 F350 CCLB RWD V10
'14 Keystone Passport 238ML / '13 GC Trailhawk Hemi
RIP Birch (pitbull)
BirchyBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2017, 04:26 AM   #9
curtthegreat
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Michigan
Posts: 34
Long time stalker, 1st time writer. We have a 2016 Fuzion 420 with 3 a/c's. We live in northern lower Michigan, and the dealer had two 420's. One with 2 units, the other with 3. Salesperson said she did not see the need for 3, unless you live in Arizona. That sold me, I like it cool. However, the first 1st time we camped with high heat and humidity, the 3 units struggled to keep our camper cool. Prior to this 5er, we had a 1986 35' Jayco 5er, with 1 a/c unit, no duct work, and that baby got cold. When we got back home. I started the investigation, using the knowledge I acquired from this forum, thanks everyone. 1st stop, vent ducts, everything good. Next, bottom cover of center a/c, above loft, awesome location I might add, thanks Keystone. The divider had been blown out of position, so a little aluminum duct tape and good. Well, so so good, that increased the air movement slightly, and I mean slightly. My thermostat is set up as zone heating/cooling, mine has 3 zones. Zone 1 is the living/kitchen area. Zone 2 is the bedroom/bath. Zone 3 is the garage. When I turn on zone 1, to cool just the living area, the center a/c is the only one that comes one, but is connected to the entire duct system, so essentially, I have 1 a/c trying to cool the whole 43' beast. I then taped off the vent in the bedroom and the one in the garage. It made a big difference, and I can actually zone cool by opening up the louvers on the bedroom and garage a/c units, so the air stays out of the vents, and cools the desired area. Sorry for the long post, like I said 1st time, hopefully I'll get better.
curtthegreat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2017, 05:30 AM   #10
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 26,839
Welcome to the forum curtthegreat. I think you've touched on one of the most significant factors in satisfactory (or is it unsatisfactory) cooling. The ductwork is in the attic space. It is surrounded by "superheated, unconditioned air".... What that means is that the cold air being produced by the rooftop units is actually being "warmed to near room temperature" as it leaves the rooftop unit and passes through the ductwork. Most of the ducting in the trailer's "central air delivery system" is actually 3/8" or 1/2" aluminum foil covered foam. Next time you're in Lowes, look at the R factor printed on their rigid foam sheeting. It's typically around R2 for 1/2" thickness. Add the foil backing and maybe it will insulate to about R3. Now add (at most) 1 or 2" of spun fiberglass insulation on top of that, and you'll have around R4 insulation between the cold air and the "superheated" attic air. What comes out the ducts is already "close to warm" rather than the cold temperature that's leaving the rooftop unit.

One of the "resistance factors" from buyers in the early 90's when ceiling ducting was being introduced was the inefficiency that came with it. Before that, one A/C unit, 15K BTU in size would cool a 32' travel trailer and keep it comfortable. The problem was that you couldn't close any doors or the "down-spout air" was blocked. So manufacturers introduced a ceiling delivery system. DISMAL FAILURE !!!! It was (back then) a thin aluminum ducting that ran through the rafters and by the time the air got to the bedroom, it was hot, not cool, but hot. Through "trial and error" the system evolved to what's available today, foam ducting and shorter runs from rooftop unit to vent. So to minimize the heat gain, two, three or even four rooftop units are needed. And, it's still not as effective at removing heat as the old "air dump" system.

So now, for the past few years, most manufacturers use a "combination system" that has ceiling ducting for "moderate temperatures" and an "air dump" that they call "quick cool" or some other "gimmick" brand name, but it's not "new technology". Actually, what it is, is a reversion to the older "air dump technology" from which RV air conditioning started.

Unfortunately, most RV manufacturers, RV dealers and PDI "introducers" don't even touch on the most effective way to cool the RV on hot days. That's to just eliminate the air movement through the ducts (where it gets hot before entering the cabin) and use the "air dump system". It's "not what they told us we had" (central air) but it is "cold air into the cabin" and it cools much more effectively than the ceiling ductwork.

We find, typically, that we can keep our 31' fifth wheel much cooler with the air dump and a fan to blow air up the stairs, even in 100F temperatures. When using the ceiling delivery ductwork, maybe 85F cabin temp, when using the dump, we can keep inside temps around 75 or so. Sure it's loud, no such thing as a quiet place to read a book, but much more comfortable than the elevated temps we get with the "central air".

Your experience, opening the "dump vents" to deliver cold air directly into the room by avoiding the ductwork is the same as what we've found to be true. Sometimes "the old way of doing things" is still the most efficient... It may not be the "best or the most quiet, but the most productive.....
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2017, 08:41 AM   #11
curtthegreat
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Michigan
Posts: 34
Thanks for the welcome JRTJH, I didn't take into consideration the sound aspect, good point. But, if I were twvette, and I was considering a 3rd a/c (which should be standard in rigs this size) I think I would look seriously at putting it in the vent above the kitchen, and not duct it, if it is so wired. I know the one in the loft is probably pre wired for it, but the ducts gobble up so much air, and if you don't duct it and run a straight dump from the loft, I'd be concerned about not getting enough air out of the loft. By putting 3 non ducted a/c's in, Keystone could save on labor and material, and have a true zone system. If done the right way, these babies will cool and heat.
curtthegreat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2017, 12:55 PM   #12
twvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 188
Thanks everyone, great detailed info and makes sense to me. I will look into the divider, etc. for sure for some improvements and continue to dump as much as I can directly out the AC rather than ducts. With my AC units being at extreme opposite ends of rig I think I am really gonna struggle to get much cool air flow to the living room even with fairly big fans but sure it will help some. I am glad it was mentioned the 3rd AC on the 420 is in the loft (another ) as I was thinking they would be smart and put it where the fan is in kitchen/living area. I agree I would try and have a third added there with no ducting. Its looking to me like someone "over thought" the AC locations on this model and simply decided directly over beds was the key as otherwise no other logic seems to apply. Its gonna be 120 on Phoenix and still over 90 where my trailer is at this weekend so will get to try it again.
__________________
- '16 Fuzion Chrome 420
- '15 RAM 3500 SRW 4x4 Aisin Crew
- '17 Maverick X3 RS
twvette is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 11:32 AM   #13
dcg9381
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Texarkana, TX
Posts: 1,052
I have a 37' carbon. 2 ACs. One is over the bunk in the "kitchen" area which can basically be closed off via curtains.

I did some AC work on my rig this weekend. Most of the AC tape at the vent exits had come lose and I was getting cold air directed into the area above the ceiling. I also removed the vent covers (restrictors) from all of the AC vents in the living room. I get much better air flow now.

Next step is to drop the AC cover and clean up the duct work at the source.
dcg9381 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2017, 01:54 PM   #14
mikz86ta
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Davie
Posts: 331
Same issues here. I am in South Florida. It's been a struggle and the door/patio face to the East and take in alot of sun.
With patio left up, it helps. But that's no fun and we full time live. So we added a compression drape rod inside the slider door curtain 'box'. We added some Eclipse blackout curtains and keep them closed alot of half closed. We opted for the blackout ones that let some light thru. There is one catch...they don't make the right length. So we got the closest long ones and hemmed them up. A 2 panel set at Walmart and the cheapo rod was well worth the money. Wasn't too expensive.
Next as you have ready done is with airflow. The setup of the AC in this is ridiculous! Both thermostats are next to each other with the garage door in between. However I did some test and found this.....
The rear AC is in the garage. So there is your return and your thermostat in there as well. There is 2 outlet vents in the garage attached to that unit. The other two vents for that unit are in half the living area. I recall the ones above patio door side.
The front AC is in the bedroom. So there is your return but the thermostat is by the garage door inside. Absolutely dumb. There is one vent in bedroom, one in master bath and the other two are in the living area.
I have noticed that if we have the temp set low to cool, and we have the bedroom doors closed, then it continues to run and the bedroom can get pretty cold. Especially if you open the dumps. But opened dumps means lessbair back to living area and the thermostat never sees it getting colder.
I try to leave all doors open or not fully closed.
Another issue is the front AC had frozen over twice in 3 months. I may need to reposition the sensor inside as I have read some people do. I do the defrost method I have read about and all is well. Also we read where condensation from hot showers can cause this effect. So we use the bathroom vent and close the bathroom doors. On the FZ420 as you know the bedroom to bath slider door is never 100% shut.
mikz86ta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2017, 02:13 PM   #15
mikz86ta
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Davie
Posts: 331
Sorry I wasn't done but had to go for a few.

Anyways.... To help also in our case, leaving the awnings out help.
The awning does not cover the entry side front bedroom window. So we plan on doing another compression rod in the 'box' and another blackout panel.
Small bedroom slide window is in the shade and does not bother us.
The window above the entry door I hate. It let's alot of heat in as does the hallway window. The awnings cover these but here in South Florida the pop up rain showers and gusty winds are a problem. Can't leave the RV and leave them out unfortunately. These awnings are junk but expensive junk.
The entry doors we bought those $8/$10 sun shades. Well worth it.
The window above entry door Christine is going to make a curtain. With a cheap rod and some command hooks, we are set to help that area out.
Hallway window I will eventually fork out $$$ for some thicker shades.
The couch area windows are not an issue. That side stays shaded for now.
The garage bath has no air vent and a window. Again, if awnings are out, not too bad. Other side that bath is a sauna.
Rear door, same store bought specific door shade.
Garage windows. Going to buy a roll of that window shade stuff and custom make our own. FYI you can buy a similar product at Lowe's and it's a little cheaper than the RV store stuff.

Another concern is the rear AC. They put it so far back it's ridiculous. The HappyJac beds are up and / or you lock the upper one up, it's right against the return. Makes for a very inefficient system.
I leave my upper bed loose and the lower bed-couch up holding it up. But I lower them a bit to give more airflow across the top.
I plan on drilling new position holes to modify the upper bed locked in place position.
Also keep in mind that the rear AC return will draw alot of dust into it from that upper bed mattress. Keep up cleaning those filters at least once a month for full time living. Same with front.

I know it's a long read. But just wanted to help. Hope some ideas and help are taken. I'm game for return ideas as well.
mikz86ta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2017, 02:17 PM   #16
mikz86ta
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Davie
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcg9381 View Post
I have a 37' carbon. 2 ACs. One is over the bunk in the "kitchen" area which can basically be closed off via curtains.

I did some AC work on my rig this weekend. Most of the AC tape at the vent exits had come lose and I was getting cold air directed into the area above the ceiling. I also removed the vent covers (restrictors) from all of the AC vents in the living room. I get much better air flow now.

Next step is to drop the AC cover and clean up the duct work at the source.
I've read this before about crappy tape job. I plan on looking at mine more. I must say that at least the AC unit install area was taped well. Must been a mid week AC install on my unit. Lol
mikz86ta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2017, 02:27 PM   #17
mikz86ta
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Davie
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by curtthegreat View Post
Thanks for the welcome JRTJH, I didn't take into consideration the sound aspect, good point. But, if I were twvette, and I was considering a 3rd a/c (which should be standard in rigs this size) I think I would look seriously at putting it in the vent above the kitchen, and not duct it, if it is so wired. I know the one in the loft is probably pre wired for it, but the ducts gobble up so much air, and if you don't duct it and run a straight dump from the loft, I'd be concerned about not getting enough air out of the loft. By putting 3 non ducted a/c's in, Keystone could save on labor and material, and have a true zone system. If done the right way, these babies will cool and heat.
On this FZ 420 model, they list a 3rd AC option. Has it listed as a Garage unit. Silly thing is...the 2 AC models like mine, have the 2nd in the garage already. So it's really a Mid-Coach unit.
I've seen these from the outside, but every 420 we looked at in person had the 2 unit setup.
And the way the 2 are ducked splitting the coach, I am wondering how they ducked the 3rd
mikz86ta is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2017, 02:42 PM   #18
hdrolling
Senior Member
 
hdrolling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Grays Creek, NC
Posts: 334
We use to have the same issue and then I read about members having luck filling the windows with the Reflectix double reflective Insulation. We picked up a big roll and cut to fit all the windows.

Also having a couple fans running keeps everything cool for us.
__________________
2018 Chevy LTZ 3500 4X4, DRW, QC, 6.6L TD, Factory trailer prep, Andersen Aluminum hitch
2015 Raptor 332TS 38' Toyhauler, Maxxis M8008,Splendide 2100XC, Winegard RoadTrip Mission satellite dish, King sleep number bed


Retired Army, 22yrs
hdrolling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 06:26 PM   #19
GovGeek
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 30
In our rig, I had to seal up every vent in the ceiling, as well as block off ducting dead space that wasn't servicing a vent. My AC unit wasn't even secured to the roof fully. The AC was leaking into the attic area. I documented it in my blog.

Recently I started using netting over my slides (I don't have toppers yet) and it made a huge difference in 100-degree weather in full sun. It got to 80 inside, which isn't a bad temperature differential.
__________________
Proud Navy Dad
PowerShell by day - Tinkerer by night
'16 Keystone Outback 324CG/'04 F250 Bullettproof 6.0L
Blogg@ - https://rv-therapy.com/blog/
GovGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2017, 07:14 PM   #20
lesleyinky
Senior Member
 
lesleyinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by GovGeek View Post
In our rig, I had to seal up every vent in the ceiling, as well as block off ducting dead space that wasn't servicing a vent. My AC unit wasn't even secured to the roof fully. The AC was leaking into the attic area. I documented it in my blog.



Recently I started using netting over my slides (I don't have toppers yet) and it made a huge difference in 100-degree weather in full sun. It got to 80 inside, which isn't a bad temperature differential.


Can you explain what type of netting you mean over your slides?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lesleyinky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
air conditioner, fuzion

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.