Moderators Need Your Input!

[Festus2]

The Moderators would like to develop a thread to assist members in selecting a Tow Vehicle for their RV. As you are aware, members are often asked "What truck should I buy for my ........RV". Lately, this question is being asked often and members find themselves responding to this same query over and over - with slight variations - and may be tiring of answering it.

We would like to refer new members who ask this question to a "Sticky Thread" which would provide them with some guidelines and basic information in helping them decide. We realize that every situation is unique and that there is no stock or one size fits all answer and that we would not be able to answer every question for all members.

The forum cannot make decisions for people as to what TV is the one they should buy. However, we can provide them with many of the tools to help the decision-making process easier. They still must do some research, legwork and homework on their own. We believe that the member has responsibilities here as well.

The Moderators are looking for your input in helping make up such a thread. You can help by:
1) Asking yourself, "If I were buying a TV, what guidelines and information would I find helpful"? "What do I need to know and what questions do I need to ask?" "What do I need to find out for myself?"
Let us know.
2) Listing any websites that we could include as references for the buyer. For example, websites with information about the various weights and ratings and what they all mean. You can include any that you have used yourself and found useful.
3) Including any other guidelines you would like to see included in this sticky.

Remember, the intent of this thread is a guide only. Any specific information you include should be factual and not based on your opinion. There will be some statement - yet to be determined - about forum liability.

Please post your suggestions in this section. Point form is always good - easier on the Moderators! We don't see any need for comments about or criticism of other members' contributions - we are looking for lots of ideas rather than a discussion or debate on the merit of the post.
Once all of your comments and ideas have been posted, the Moderators will collect them, and put together a rough draft for your final consideration and comments.
There will be a deadline for submissions -TBA.
Once finalized, the new Sticky Thread will appear in the Towing and Tow Vehicle section. New members who then ask "the question" should first be referred to that Sticky Thread.

Note: If you have any questions about this new Sticky, please contact one of the Moderators.
We are looking forward to your input and thanking you in advance for your participation.

Festus2

[richf28]

When I decided I needed a new tow vehicle I went to the dealer with the thought of buying a 3/4 ton diesel. I was introduced to the new Ford Ecoboost. Not a believer I went home and went online. http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/experiencef150. Watched the torture test videos and have to say it sold me and I'm happy.

[Txoutback]

Don't tax out your TV. Give yourself at least a 20% margin.

[hankaye]

Howdy All;

Most important to me is STOPPING POWER.

Like the 'Strongman' tricks... once they get the locomotive rolling they can keep it moving.
However you never see them STOP one.

The design spec's. of the vehicle take into consideration the ability of the braking system.

I like the idea of the 20% "Fudge Factor".

hankaye
(the"Other" hank)

[Handysam]

Obviously real world numbers on the vehicles for towing and payload is a must. Trailer Life has a very nice guide for different years and makes of all vehicles. Breaks are a very good point, as well as the 20% margin. Although I think all the big three have very good trucks in the towing dept. I think peoples opinions do matter, just not sure how you would put that in a sticky format. If I were to buy a TV today, I would first find the towing and payload capacities, for that is the reason FOR the TV. Next would be price, warranty, and options available, such as, cab size, bed size, gear ratios, engine size, diesel or gas, cost to maintain, etc. To me comfort and looks are important, because its my daily driver. Hope this helps, Happy Camping, Sam

[Bob Landry]

I'm always amazed at how many posts we read weekely asking how much can this truck pull, or Is my trailer too heavy. Between all of the forums I lurk on, it probably comes up 6-8 times a week. The question is always the same and the answers are also.
Everyone has their favorite little set of numbers that the like to throw out because they read them somewhere, 13% tongue weight, 20% margin, and we can all think of others. The bottom line is that most of the people who post these questions have not even bothered to educate themselves on the rating numbers on their truck or trailer and what they really mean. There is a lot of self-education involved and most new members to the forums are not willing to do that, they just want the quickest magic answer so they can move on, usually because they have found the trailer they can't live without and are desparate to make it work. So they keep asking the same questions in different ways until they get the answer they want. I have to admit that when I first got into this game, all of that was daunting and thankfully, I did not get put into a rig that would have been dangerous on the highway by some agressive salesman that needed to make his quota. I'm still no authority on the subject, but I've learned a lot, and I think the simple answers to these repetative questions are... Gross weight. That is the heaviest that your trailer is ever going to be. Your actual weight may be less than that, but should never be over. It consists of curb weight and cargo capacity. if it is at or preferably below the published tow rating of your TV, then it will pull it.

The other half is towing and payload capacity of the TV, Eveyone really seems to want to skate around this one, but it's crucial. payload is the amount of weight that the truck is capable of carrying, plain and simple. It's printed on the tag inside the drivers door on every truck manufactured. Most people don't seem to know where it is. Many people tow or want to tow with a 1/2 ton truck, myself included. It can be done, but the shortfall of any 1/2 ton truck is payload carrying capacity. If you have a 1/2 ton, load it up with wife, two kids, the golden retriever and a load of firewood and a couple of bicycles in the bed, chances are you aren't going to make it. Payload is everything in the truck including fuel, passengers, cargo, and last but not least. Tongue weight. That gets added also. That 1000lbs of tongue weight gets added right in there with DW and the kids. BTW, don't tell DW she needs to drop 50lbs so you can have that trailer you've been looking at, or you'll be camping in it alone. We can also get into axle ratings and what they mean, but that's beyond the scope of this post and if you are withinthe tow rating and payload for your truck, it's usually not going to be applicable anyway.. My point is that all of the information needed to make an itelligent decision on matching trucks and trailers is out there, and it ain't rocket science, but it does require some uninterupted reading time.

Weight police.. They are on every forum. Ignore them. They are the crowd that thinks it's criminal to tow any trailer with less than a 3/4 ton diesel. There are a lot of us towing with a 1/2 ton truck and we're doing it by the numbers, or at least close.

So, if you have a legitimate question about towing and what your truck will or won't do, ask away and we will try our best to help you, but at least know what the tow rating and the payload capacity of your TV is, because that's the first thing you are going to be asked.

[Me.Bikes.Dogs]

The Sticky will have to cover TT information versus fifth wheel information. Two different needs based on which you pull.

[Me.Bikes.Dogs]

Every trailer has a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) which is the maximum allowable weight of a trailer with cargo included (i.e. propane, fuel, food). If you put anything in it or on it, it adds to the weight. Every tow vehicle (TV) has a Maximum Towing capacity and every trailer has a Maximum Cargo Weight. Whether you have a trailer or a fifth wheel, the GVW of your trailer plus everything in it must be less than the maximum towing capacity of your TV.

The trailer weight provided in the manufacturer's brochure, is the shipping weight. This is a completely empty trailer. No propane, batteries, water and camping supplies. If you take this shipping weight and add your trailer's maximum cargo capacity, you have the maximum GVW of your trailer, the GVWR. The maximums for your specific trailer will be found on a yellow sticker on the entrance door to your trailer (which also includes your vehicles VIN).

Always find the actual manual for the TV to determine the towing specifics of your vehicle. Never trust a salesperson for the trailer or the truck. The towing capability changes based on manual vs automatic, 4x4 vs 4x2 and so on. Find the specifics for your vehicle on the manufacturer's website, in the manual or on the vehicle's door panel. Once you know your trailers maximum GVW and your TV maximum towing capacity, you have the first value you can use to determine if the TV you are considering will work.

Most people suggest the TV should have capacities 20% greater than the trailer weight, just to add a margin of safety and to put less wear and tear on the TV. Since you won't always load your trailer the exact same way on every trip, having a little safety margin is a good thing.

The TV numbers should never be exceeded!

When towing a travel trailer the Maximum Tongue Load is important. A trailer uses the bumper or hitch area to tow a trailer. Your trailer will have an associated hitch weight that takes into account a properly loaded and balanced trailer cargo. If you put lead weights in the front of your trailer you will dramatically throw off your hitch weight and all bets are off. Your TV must have a maximum tongue load greater than the trailer hitch value. Again a margin of error is prudent.

When towing a fifth wheel, the Payload is important. The weight of the trailer is put into the bed rather than on a bumper or lower hitch. The hitch weight of a fifth wheel will be dramatically higher than the hitch weight of a travel trailer. A fifth wheel hitch weight must be less than the tow vehicles' maximum payload value.

When you are looking at Toy Haulers, you will see a high hitch weight. This is the hitch weight of an unloaded trailer. Toy Haulers are designed to have heavy things in the back of the trailer. This levering action lowers the actual hitch weight. It is generally accepted that hitch weights of any fifth wheel should be 10-15% of the loaded trailer when properly balanced.

If you don't properly balance your trailer, whether a travel trailer, fifth wheel or toy hauler, you can exceed your tow vehicles specifications and create a dangerous towing situation. So how can you determine if your trailer is properly balanced and your TV capacities aren't exceeded?

Once you have your trailer and TV, visit a CAT weigh scale and weigh your fully loaded TV (kids, dogs, coolers, spouse, etc.) and fully loaded Trailer (propane, water, beer, oh, and some food too), your trailer by itself and your TV by itself. The operator at the scale will usually be happy to help you. There will probably be a nominal fee to do this (less than $20). Only after weighing your TV and Trailer will you know you have everything set up properly and are operating in the safest manner.

Here are a couple websites that can help to determine the Tow Vehicle necessary for your particular situation:
Travel Trailer to Tow Vehicle calculator
Fifth Wheel to Tow Vehicle calculator

Happy Trailering!

[campingcpl]

I've seen a lot of good information given so far but one thing I haven't really seen is the "BUYER BEWARE" comment. Since dealing with sales people as part of my job and dealing with them as a retail customer I see this all the time. The one thing I see sales people do constantly is try to sell a product by it's dry weight and not it's GVWR. I have seen a couple of comments that had mentioned looking at the GVWR of the towed unit be it a TT or 5ver. I think when looking at purchasing a new towable would be looking at GVWR of the unit on the sticker and not asking the dealer. I have come across a couple of dealers that when I asked what the GVWR of the unit was they just looked at me and said "well what are going to pull it with" or I also have come across where I have told them that I didn't want to be over say 8000 lbs GVWR and they start showing me trailers with a dry weight of 7500 lbs. Sales people will tell you what you want to hear just to make a sale. I have had sales people that I work with wanting me to fudge spec's on something just so they can sell it.

I've also seen several comments about the tongue weight and yes this should be a consideration also. Working in the RV industry I know that most manufactures take into consideration the tongue weight when setting the axle placement. For example: Most toy haulers have a 2000 lbs limit in the rear cargo area so the manufacture will set the axles to add more dry tongue weight. Industry hitch weight standards are; non toy hauler travel trailers will be 10% - 15% depending on floor plan (ie, front living, rear living, front or rear kitchen, etc.), non toy hauler 5th wheel will be 15% - 20% (again will very by floor plan), toy hauler travel trailer will be 14% - 18% (again will very per floor plan and number of axles), toy hauler 5th wheels will be 18% - 23% (again will very per floor plan and number of axles). So if you are looking at a rear living unit that has a lot of storage in front of the axles they will set the tongue weight to the lower percentage and vise versa if you have a rear kitchen they will set the tongue weight to the heavier percentage to help off set the weight of what you would put in the storage areas. Granted it's hard to anticipate what people are going to put in the storage area's so it comes down to using a reasonable estimate.

As for buying a tow vehical, my personal opinion is the same as most of the other people on this forum. First I would look at the GVWR of the trailer I want to pull then look at the max towing of the TV and then filter down to payload, GVWR of TV, etc. Everyone will have their favorites when it comes to manufacture be it Ford, Dodge, GM, etc. And someone else said something about options, the ride, etc., but there is one thing I haven't seen anyone say and that is fuel economy. I know for me that was a big issue when looking for a bigger TV. The bad thing is when it comes to 3/4 ton or 1 ton trucks it's hard to find fuel ratings for these types of vehicals. So one way I found was to visit the forums and ask what other people are getting and to check reviews of the truck you are considering. Of course when doing my research I found a diverse range because of mods people had done or their driving habbits. So I took it all in and basicaly figured an average. I did this for towing and none towing as well as gas and diesel. As for us going from a 1/2 ton that was getting 16 city and 19 hwy not towing and getting 8 to 10 towing I knew we would want something that was going to get us the same or better not towing and considerably better towing. When doing my research I found out that the gas 3/4 or 1 ton wouldn't get me really any better improvment so we looked into the diesels. At the end of the day it comes down to personal preferance and weighing the options of getting a gas or diesel or 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton or 1 ton. The one thing I think everyone could agree on when it comes to choosing a TV would be getting something that will make towing safe. Yes there are a lot of 1/2 ton trucks out there that say they can pull 10,000+ lbs but can they do it safely is the question as well as 3/4 ton trucks saying they will tow 17,000+ lbs an so on. Do the research and don't trust the answer of just one or two people!

[Jim W]

I agree with most of what has been said and I see there is no reason to repeat what has been already discussed.
I would only add this to the discussion, is what is being done in the engineering world for Automotive manufactures. I would recommend that the new SAE towing standard be re-print with SAE permission of course. This is SAE J2807 which will be implemented in 2013. This may help the novice RV'er in picking a tow vehicle.
Jim W.

[Festus2]

Jim:
Do you have handy a website for these new SAE towing standards? If so, could you please edit and add it to your above post? Thanks for your input.

[Festus2]

Note to Members:
This thread will close on Friday, July 15th. If you have any recommendations for our proposed Sticky ( "What Kind of Truck Should I Get?"), please post them here on or before the closing date.
Thank you.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

[Jim W]

[QUOTE=Festus2;15966]Jim:
Do you have handy a website for these new SAE towing standards? If so, could you please edit and add it to your above post? Thanks for your input.[/QUOTE[/I]

I sent you a private e-mail to you.
Jim W.

[The Sod Father]

In addition to the technical points listed above, I would recommend that the buyer also look a the following deciding factors when selecting a tow vehicle-

1) How many people are camping with you? - if you have two kids and your camper is a bunk house, you may need to factor in people capacity. If each kid brings a friend, you now need to transport 6 people while towing the camper. A super crew pick up with a front bench seat will suffice for a short trip, but will get pretty uncomfortable after an hour or so. This was the deciding factor in my getting the Expedition EL. Everyone gets a comfy seat and there is plenty of room in the "way back" for our 100lb dog. Can't do that in a super crew.

2) Will this be your daily driver? - Again, using my case, the Expedition is also my daily driver. And I commute 2 hours a day. A diesel would be a nice option, but in my area diesel fuel is anywhere from 30 to 60 cents more than regular gas. Ergo, my annual fuel costs would increase and I will need to budget accordingly.

3) Alternate use - in addition to towing, what other purpose would your tow vehicle serve? Are you into home improvements or gardening? Then a pick up may be a better option over a full sized SUV. Do you bike, ski, kayak, etc? Will you need an 8' bed for your other toys or will you need to set up a rack system to fit that beautiful new 14' kayak that you just bought? Factor in the cost of the rack system.

[GMcKenzie]

First suggestion is for folks to not buy either a trailer or a tow vehicle until they settle on both. It's understood that most folks can't do both at once, but too many have bought one or the other and now are scrambling to fix a problem. So I think the first point should be to not rush into buying something until you have sorted out both pieces.

Also, without being mean, stress what campingcpl has said. Don't trust either the truck salesman or the RV salesman. Both will try to get you into what they think they can sell you on.

[SteveC7010]

In other forums, this is a very common question so I will just summarize here.

As a general rule of thumb, properly equipped 1/2 ton pickups can be safely used on TT's up to 6,500# GVWR. There are variations, and everybody knows someone who tows a 10K# trailer with an old Chevy S-10, but the bottom line from experienced folks, many of whom learned the hard way is what it is. Even if the 1/2 ton truck will pull the heavier TT, safety and control quickly come into play.

So, if you report a dry weight of 6852, the GVWR is probably around 7,800 or so. This is usually determined by the capacity of the axles used by the manufacturer plus calculated frame strength of the TT.

Those that own trailers in this weight range will all tell you that a 1/2 ton truck is not enough truck for the TT. Many of them started where you are, tried the combination and and found it lacking. Reasons? Broken axles from too much tongue and payload weight. Blown transmissions from pulling excess weight up too many long steep hills. Bent frames, inadequate TV brakes, and more.

As far as what folks carry, they may promise to never carry any liquid in the holding tanks, but real life is different. Some day it is guaranteed to have to travel with full tanks. It is just plain inevitable. Full tanks should be included in any calculations done to match up a TT and TV. Same for food, clothing, and all the other gear that we all seem to carry. (Liquid matters big time! At 8.5 pounds per gallon, my trailer can hold over 1,400# of fresh and dirty water. I believe it would be a disastrous mistake to discount holding tanks when sizing a truck.) If you do travel consistently with empty tanks, but sized the truck to include full tanks, then you have given yourself, your family, and others on the roadways a very nice safety margin.

Another way to look at it is a percentage of safety margin between the TV's capacities and the TT's GVWR and tongue weight. I have heard numbers quoted from 10% up to 35%. There's no perfect answer, but I like 15-20% as a minimum. So if your truck is rated to pull 7,900 and the GVWR of the TT is 7,800# you have less than 1% safety margin. There's nothing extra in case you need it. Remember that TV's lose capability when elevation increases so traveling in the mountains is almost immediately ruled out.

Tongue weight matters too. For proper towing, TT's should have about 12% of their weight on the tongue. A 7,800# GVWR trailer should put about 936# on the tongue, but the number could be a lot higher. What is the rated load capacity of the truck? Well, if you put two average adults plus camping gear (we all toss more stuff in the TV than we should!) and then add up all the weights, you may well be at or over the truck's capabilities. Truck axle ratings matter a lot from this point of view.

Guy came into a forum a couple of years ago and wanted to know if his Jeep Commander would pull a particular trailer. One of the gents did some calculations and quickly determined that the Jeep's rated payload was barely enough to include 4 adults and some luggage. Much as the car was rated to pull the dry weight of the TT, hooking it up and actually traveling with it would likely have broken the axles or springs (or both).