The GOOD Keystone and its EVIL twin

[JRTJH]

I know this probably won't change anything because the world is made up of those who see the glass half full and some who see the glass half empty. Some people consistently look for the good in anything while others simply can't justfy getting out of bed in the morning unless they can find fault with something, even before their first cup of coffee. But, if this viewpoint puts into perspective that there is only ONE KEYSTONE, then maybe the effort won't be lost on those who are, as they read this, looking for something else to complain about......

Sometimes I simply have to wonder.... Are there TWO Keystone factories? One "good" one on the right side of the road and one "evil" one on the wrong side of Davis Drive in Goshen, Indiana????? Then, I think back to when I toured the factory and there was only ONE Keystone plant. There was ONE Keystone customer service, ONE Jason, ONE Carol, ONE window for customers to sign in and ONE fence that contained it all.

Why then, I have to ask, do some of our members praise the customer service they receive and proclaim that they are totally satisfied and then some of our members complain so loudly that they must have sore throats from yelling so loudly as they proclaim that Keystone is the worst company doing business in America.....

What is the difference in the two "attitudes" consistently posted on the forum? Why is it that some people who praise Keystone can have an issue with their RV and their dealer can repair it on the first try and get them back on the road while other people "condem" Keystone because their RV consistently is broken, their dealer "can't get Keystone to pay for the repairs" or even when it is repaired, it breaks again on the way home?????

How could it be that the same Keystone that produced my Cougar can build another one "right behind it on the assembly line" and support every repair mine needed while consistently refusing to even consider a repair on the next one down the line???? How is it possible that Keystone can change from a white hat (when my dealer calls them) to a black hat (when another dealer calls them) ???? How is it possible that a manufacturing plant can have such a "split" personality and consistently be "good to me" and be "so evil to others"??????

Maybe I'm oversimplifying the problem, but I'm thinking that it's the same Keystone that answers the phone in the warranty authorizations department every time, but the "issue" is NOT Keystone, but the dealer???? Unless there are "TWO Keystones", then the problem must originate elsewhere??????

Or could it even be complicated by some customer's unrealistic expectations? Is it even possible that some people might drive 1500 miles to save $3000, and when they need service and it's refused, rather than seek to try to understand why they have a problem, they come here, complain bitterly that "Keystone sucks" ???? How is it that their local dealer gets a "free ride" while Keystone takes all the hits ????

Is it even remotely possible that the same Keystone that built mine was responsible for completely missing the boat when it built theirs???? How is it possible that the "service provided by Keystone" can be so significantly different in making things right after purchase???? How is it possible that some people can always "get the right number" when they call the factory and some people always get the "evil twin" on the phone and never get past first base? I'm not that skilled at baseball to "always hit a home run, but come on guys, what's the difference in the two Keystones??????

Is there a chance that some of us have become so "spoiled" by our expectations of "me" that we simply can't cope with something that breaks and the world doesn't stop until we get what we expect from someone we don't know, didn't do business with and won't return to buy from them, because "that BAD Keystone didn't do what I thought they should." ?????

If we eliminate the occasional honest mistake, you know, the ones that humans make occasionally, is it really Keystone that created the crisis? Or is it even remotely possible that an inept dealer, a busy service writer, a sick service technician or even a "simple misunderstanding" might have a hand in making things worse rather than fixing them????? Could that owner be "barking up the wrong tree" complaining about Keystone, the local dealer, the RV that isn't what they expected all the while not even considering if the mirror could possibly hold a clue that might help resolve the dilemma??????

[hankpage]

Wheeeew!!!! John, I'm exhausted just reading that. I'm glad my Cougar came from the good guys. and not the evil ones.

[cw3jason]

Well said

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[BobbyB]

Where's the "Like" button. Well said, John!


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[JRTJH]

I don't want to "point fingers" with this statement, but I really think it needed to be stated, plainly and distinctly:

Members who come with a problem, seeking a solution for a problem, those trying to understand, those trying to get their RV repaired deserve not only to be heard, but also deserve any help that might lead them down the track of enjoying their RV.

On the other hand, recently, it seems we've had a large number of members whose only purpose, it seems to me, is to rattle the chains, complain and try to stir the pot. It's not, "Hey, I need help" rather it's, "Hey you dummies, your RV sucks because mine does too"..... They aren't looking for assistance, rather they are simply trying to find another platform from which to yell their frustrations. And, for some of them, their frustrations are at least partly "self induced".....

I just wanted to set the record straight that all of our RV's are built by the same factory, and it's extremely difficult to comprehend how different the service and performance can be from the same people at the same factory....

I'm thinking it's not Keystone in a growing number of these complaints, but rather "other entities" that are pushing customer satisfaction over the cliff.

Hank, I've had two Keystone RV's, back to back and both of them have been two of the best RV's I've had. Comfortable, reliable, functional and to top it all, they actually work the way the brochure said they would. So, I'm happy mine came from the "good Keystone" like yours

[sourdough]

Well said John. I spent the last 20 minutes writing a long, thought filled response then the website signed me out, made me sign in then lost the message. So I think I'll post a somewhat condensed version.

There are not two Keystones. One of the biggest problems I see is the complete lack of understanding of how the RV industry works with dealers and how we need to work with the dealerships.

Many posters believe the RV dealerships work like an auto dealership; they don't. After spending much time working with everyone from Marcus Lemonis at Camping World, the previous owner of my dealership, the GM and service manager (after CW bought them) as well as others I have developed a fairly keen insight into how the clock ticks.

I truly believe that there are dealerships that work well with Keystone and those that don't. Keystone requires various documents, pictures etc. in order to process a warranty repair. My service manager has been doing his thing for over 20 years and knows exactly what to send.....hence, I have never had a warranty repair refused. I even have repairs authorized when I return from FL in June....4 months after my warranty expiration. Other dealerships think it's a lot of trouble and get POd and don't do what's required. Many folks don't understand the difference between Keystone warranty and appliance warranty. I also think many owners have unrealistic expectations; "it's new, somethings wrong - I want it fixed right now".....ain't gonna happen.

I have spent much time cultivating a relationship with my current GM and service manager. I know personal details of their family and lives and they of mine. I have found over the years that that kind of relationship helps in nearly anything. Lots of folks think you need to have an adversarial relationship.

Bottom line is I support your premise that there aren't two Keystones; that obviously doesn't make sense. The disparity in the posts we see has to be either the dealership (their relationship with Keystone and processing procedures), the owner and their expectations, the owner and how they present their case or the case being presented (not a Keystone issue).

RV ownership, the workings of the dealerships, Keystone, the other manufacturers is like a keyboard. It all starts with the owner. You have to know which keys to strike to make a note; it takes many notes to make a song. If you don't know the notes all you make is noise.

[wbatto]

I check the recalls on Keystones website a lot. I had a problem with my first TT while on vacation (main 12v wire was between the floor joist and frame) and had a road service fix it.........cost $289.00 two years later I was looking on Keystones website under recalls and found the above problem. I called keystone and sent them a copy of the receipt, yes the wife keeps everything. In one week the wife had a check in her hand for $289.00. I also agree with Sour Dough that there are dealerships that work well with Keystone and those that don't. Keystone requires various documents, pictures etc. in order to process a warranty repair. For example; I had some trouble with the booth table in my TT. After 7 months of waiting on my dealer I called Keystone and found out the warranty claim had never been turned in. Sometimes it feels like some dealers just are trying to wear you down and some dealers grab the bull by the horns and get her done. We go to the RV shows and look a lot after you look at 30 or 40 of them they all start looking the same. I have had two Keystones and really researched both of them before we purchased. Both have had some minor problems but over all we have been satisfied. I have friends and family that have different brands and hear many of the same problems with their units and dealers. I guess for the folks who got their problems taken care of Great and for the folk who didn’t don’t give up. Anyway that’s my two cents.

[GaryWT]

First off I did not realize there was one factory. I thought there were many factories making up Keystone.. I just thought there was a Bullet factory, a Passport factory etc. maybe some combined but not all.

That said it all comes down to:

The are nice people and not so nice people
There are those who love camping and those that find it a chore
Good dealers and bad
People that love life and those that don't

[wahoonc]

There are good dealers, so so dealers and horrible dealers. Ditto the customers. Some have unrealistic expectations. My dealer falls in the so so to not so good. Their tech turn over is unreal, so I am sure the lack of continuity leads to issues when a warranty gets turned in for processing. On the flip side of the coin I really have to wonder when I was told by a service writer that I trust that nearly 90% of the rigs sitting on the back lot are waiting on some sort of warranty work? Holy Crap Marie! Then there is the Voltage that has been sitting in one of the bays for over 8 months with the main slide torn out "waiting on parts and approval". If nothing else this leads me to believe that perhaps Keystone has major issues with handling warranty claims on their own end too.

Aaron

[Brantlaker]

Well said John. After working in Auto/Truck dealer service departments for over 30 years before I retired I found that it is the Dealer not the Manufacturer that is the problem. A good dealer will fight to get a repair weather or not in Warranty even if they have to eat the repair. I am currently looking at a Open Range bunk house as Keystone does not have a floor plan that I like and all of their dealers are 5-600 miles away. After speaking to my local dealer service manager about servicing it was told that they would and that there would be no problem with warranty repairs that they would do them. That is the difference between the good and the bad ones.

[Rex1vt]

[QUOTE=JRTJH;169585]
Members who come with a problem, seeking a solution for a problem, those trying to understand.
You have pointed out to me in the past that your Cougar experience and mine are opposite.The problems I have had are related to both failure of products selected by Keystone and workmanship.Warranty service was provided but excessive loss of use of our unit while the warranty period ticked away was not
adequately accounted for.The Cougar panel,the remote board and the front cap had history of failure from previous years but were still used to the peril of the customer and resulted in inconsistent response by Keystone.I have tried to document my experience with facts for others to judge as they see fit.There are many helpful threads on the forum but the one(s)related to warranty obviously draw more scorn than praise.I feel if known problems were addressed by Keystone the need for warranty service would be substantially reduced.
I have owned six travel trailers,one motor home and seven fifth wheels and the majority of them never required warranty work.Shame on me for not being aware of the negative side of Keystone before my purchase. Regardless of my Keystone experience to date I hope my unit is better than new now and look forward to enjoying my next trip.

[Barbell]

We are one of those couples who traveled more than 1500 miles to save money when we purchased our Montana. Dealing with Pete's RV in Indiana was and is worth the trip, even if we did not have family in the Chicago area. I am sure that most dealers in the West are not incompetent like the one in Prescott, AZ who took our list of features and options we wanted and completely revised it, saying "you don't want that; this is what you want". That and the price he quoted was more than $5,000 higher than Pete's for less trailer. We just did not find a Western dealer who treated us like Pete's did. I am sure those dealers have to charge more since they are so far from the factory in Indiana, but it certainly does not cost them $5,000 more for the same thing.

We have been in several Camping World dealerships across the country and have had warranty work done in several without any questions about where we bought the trailer. We have also tried to get routine service work done at other Keystone dealers whose first question was, "where did you buy?" I have to say that except for a few of their bad apple dealers, our experience with Keystone has been most satisfactory.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

There are good dealers, so so dealers and horrible dealers. Ditto the customers. Some have unrealistic expectations. My dealer falls in the so so to not so good. Their tech turn over is unreal, so I am sure the lack of continuity leads to issues when a warranty gets turned in for processing. On the flip side of the coin I really have to wonder when I was told by a service writer that I trust that nearly 90% of the rigs sitting on the back lot are waiting on some sort of warranty work? Holy Crap Marie! Then there is the Voltage that has been sitting in one of the bays for over 8 months with the main slide torn out "waiting on parts and approval". If nothing else this leads me to believe that perhaps Keystone has major issues with handling warranty claims on their own end too.

Aaron

First, I'd say that any business, not just an RV dealership, that has a rapid turnover of employees has a problem, not with the employees but somewhere in management. People don't leave "good jobs" but they do leave frequently because the job doesn't measure up to what they were promised or expected. With that kind of "turnover" somebody in the supervisory position has to take up the slack or the customer is the one whose RV is sitting on the back line while nobody is working on "getting it fixed" (either with tools or with approval for the warranty authorization). That's not an "EVIL Keystone" problem, that's simply disorganization at the dealership.

Secondly, I'd have to ask how the dealership affords the luxury of "renting space to Keystone" to let any RV occupy a "money losing space" in their service area for 8 months? Second, the last I heard, Dutchman is still independently managed and the only aspect of management that Keystone offers is the "corporate leadership" not the day to day warranty approvals within the brand's repair process. If there's been a "disconnect" between the dealer and Dutchman, I'd believe that either the dealer isn't following the company's procedures in reporting the problem or there's more to the story than you've been told.

As for the "backlog of warranty work" at your dealership. I'd agree with your assessment that it's a "so-so to not-so-good" dealership. I'd also guess that their profit goals are being met in the sales department and their service department is a "necessary evil" that's losing money due to not being pro-active in working with the customer/factory to get issues resolved, so the comment, "90% of the rigs sitting out back are waiting on some sort of warranty work."

It's pretty easy to discern that someone in the service department doesn't know how to "speak warranty" with the factory. Maybe it's a foreign language to that person and teaching them how to deal with the factory would benefit not only the "back row storage' but also the customer satisfaction and even make them a "good to better" type of dealership ?????

I don't think you can blame Keystone (or even Dutchman) for the backlog of warranty repairs waiting approval when there's not the same backlog at other dealerships who are "pro-active" in supporting their customer's needs..... Based on what you've reported, it seems your dealership is working with the "EVIL Keystone" across the road from where my RV was manufactured.

[SAABDOCTOR]

Well said John! the differance between the good Keystone and the bad is the customer/dealer on the other end of the phone! My advice is be NICE!

[sourdough]

Rex1vt - I don't think scorn is being heaped upon those with warranty issues. I read nearly all, if not all of the posts about warranty, and it has appeared that more and more the finger points at Keystone whether responsible or not; and many of the comments are pretty strong. I think the OP is pointing out that there is quite a disparity between the results of some owner/dealerships and others dealing with Keystone.....and they are all dealing with the same company.

I don't hold Keystone blameless. My trailer was ill designed...I know it, my service manager knows it and Keystone knows it. They had figured that out before I told them because they stopped production about 2 months before I started on them. They have gone to great lengths to take care of the issues, whether due to my service manager or their own good heart.

That said it is still obvious from some posts that folks don't understand the relationships between all the players and that leads to a lot of frustration and blame being placed in the wrong place. I hope we all get satisfactory resolutions to our issues.

[JimQ]

John: Well stated. I would like to chime in with how I handled my warranty situation with my dealer and Keystone. First of all, it's all about attitude. A respectful and calm approach will get you further than showing up at the dealership, pounding your fist and shouting, demanding this and that, etc. I allowed the process that was required to assess my claim so a recommendation could be made on what would be best for all parties involved. Yes. It took time, but throughout the ordeal, I was always respectful and thankful for the efforts put forth on my behalf. In the end, I was made whole as a customer and have no complaints. There are some who will never be satisfied, no matter what.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by JimQ

John: Well stated. I would like to chime in with how I handled my warranty situation with my dealer and Keystone. First of all, it's all about attitude. A respectful and calm approach will get you further than showing up at the dealership, pounding your fist and shouting, demanding this and that, etc. I allowed the process that was required to assess my claim so a recommendation could be made on what would be best for all parties involved. Yes. It took time, but throughout the ordeal, I was always respectful and thankful for the efforts put forth on my behalf. In the end, I was made whole as a customer and have no complaints. There are some who will never be satisfied, no matter what.

I will be respectful and calm to a point.

Example: We signed paperwork to cancel our less than useful extended warranty back in late December. We were told that it would take 4 weeks to process. It is now some 12+ weeks past that point. I have respectfully called every month for the past 3 months. Today I got ugly and mentioned legal action. I am tired of being fed a line of BS every time I call, it is always someone else's fault. Sorry not buying it any more. BTW this is is the so-so dealer, they are fast slipping into the staythehellaway from them dealer. If we don't see results in the promised 14 day period I WILL be following up with legal action. This ain't rocket science, it is a simple process of filing a correct form in a timely manner. Obviously they aren't capable of that.

I have also lost faith in the service department when the service rep wondered why I wasn't hooking up the sway bars on a 3800# trailer that was being towed by a 8,000# truck... honey I don't NEED the bars on this truck! Geeze Louise, EDUCATE YOUR PEOPLE! I don't have the time. BTW 35+ years of RV experience, I would consider working in the industry but I have not found anyone willing to pay a living wage. I may try it again when I retire.

Aaron

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by wahoonc

I will be respectful and calm to a point.

Example: We signed paperwork to cancel our less than useful extended warranty back in late December. We were told that it would take 4 weeks to process. It is now some 12+ weeks past that point. I have respectfully called every month for the past 3 months. Today I got ugly and mentioned legal action. I am tired of being fed a line of BS every time I call, it is always someone else's fault. Sorry not buying it any more. BTW this is is the so-so dealer, they are fast slipping into the staythehellaway from them dealer. If we don't see results in the promised 14 day period I WILL be following up with legal action. This ain't rocket science, it is a simple process of filing a correct form in a timely manner. Obviously they aren't capable of that.

I have also lost faith in the service department when the service rep wondered why I wasn't hooking up the sway bars on a 3800# trailer that was being towed by a 8,000# truck... honey I don't NEED the bars on this truck! Geeze Louise, EDUCATE YOUR PEOPLE! I don't have the time. BTW 35+ years of RV experience, I would consider working in the industry but I have not found anyone willing to pay a living wage. I may try it again when I retire.

Aaron

I have to ask, Does any of this have anything at all to do with Keystone RV Company? Well, other than confirming that the dealership (not Keystone) is responsible for nearly all the 'grief and heartache" experienced by customers that either don't understand or refuse to accept that the smiling guy (or gal) at the dealership door, the one with the firm handshake and promises isn't always your "best friend"........

[sourdough]

wahoonc - that seemed pretty calm and respectful

It also sounds like you are at least placing the blame on the dealership vs Keystone. I don't know about your extended warranty but I bought a gap policy with my dealership when I purchased my rv then cancelled it. I cancelled with the dealership and then encountered the problems you described. I made them give me 1) the name of the company that carried the insurance and all of their contact info, 2) how the process worked; who contacts who when where etc.; 3) who got the money originally; their contact info etc. I then began with the carrier advising that the policy had been cancelled and whe I could expect from them. I contacted the bank where the money had been sent and told them of the cancellation and my expectation of the refund (it was to come off the balance owed on the note). I told them to send me confirmation of the credit when done. I then followed up with the insurance carrier and the bank 2 more times. I eventually got confirmation from the carrier of the cancellation and then confirmation from the bank on the credit. After the initial cancellation with the dealership they were never any help. This is another process that plays out among several players. In defense of your dealership this could very well be something that is bouncing around outside their realm of control. If I were you I would do the same thing I did. I got the distinct impression from the carrier on the gap insurance that they did not want to give back the money. Your extended warranty company may be doing the same thing. Things really turned around when I started butting into their business every few days.......now back to the EVIL twins

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I have to ask, Does any of this have anything at all to do with Keystone RV Company? Well, other than confirming that the dealership (not Keystone) is responsible for nearly all the 'grief and heartache" experienced by customers that either don't understand or refuse to accept that the smiling guy (or gal) at the dealership door, the one with the firm handshake and promises isn't always your "best friend"........

Agreed that the extended warranty issue is CW/dealer. However CW has some sort of deal going with Keystone/Thor, so all parties are guilty until proven innocent.

Keystone authorizes which dealers will and can sell their products. Crappy dealer selling Keystone products reflects on Keystone. FWIW I have a Coleman/Dutchmen unit built by KEYSTONE, says so right on the tag. I have tried numerous times at several dealers to try and order a couple of replacement panels for the interior, so far no joy. I even tried contacting Keystone/Dutchmen direct, they told me I needed to go through the dealer. Typical denial round robin piss the customer off. FWIW I have purchased panels for other brands of RV's in the past with no problem. I can promise you that my next unit will not be anything that is under the Thor umbrella.

Keystone is more interested in their bottom line than they are in pleasing customers and maintaining a decent dealer network. They could reduce production by a few units a week and greatly improve the quality of what come out the door. There are plenty of other companies that do just that, but that is not the mass production maximize profits way.

Aaron