Fifth wheel options

[formyfelinebabies]

I’m hoping that I can get some advice from those that have owned fifth wheels/toy haulers. I’m more of a motorhome girl and the last time I tried a travel trailer it did not go well. of course I think the main problem was an undersized truck, insert red face here.

I purchased an RV lot and are going full-time with my 91-year-old mother that I care give 24 7 who has very specific needs. We have narrowed it down to the Heartland cyclone 4006.

I know this is not the heartland forum but I’m looking for advice if anyone has a different manufacturer or unit that might be better for more technical reasons than the living area fluff.
We don’t plan on towing it will have it delivered.
Prefer new not used but open to used if there was a large price difference.
Need it to feel like a house which this one does, living room very important
Two sleeping areas Very important
Two toilets very important
frankly kitchen is not important although this one is fantastic. Dishwasher very important, but only found in Durango gold and I don’t find a toy hauler with them
The toy hauler version allows us to do whatever we want with the garage and have a patio that Mom can roll out onto without leaving the coach.

Any current owners would love to hear your experience. And anyone that has a different unit maybe we missed in our search would love to hear about that.

As a sidenote, I’m going to start researching what we need to do to protect the chassis part while it’s parked for long. But any advice on that would be helpful also.

OK one more question… if I do decide to tow or have a tow vehicle what is the minimal truck needed to to this unit? I understand this is a very large unit. I have no fears of towing.

[chuckster57]

A dishwasher can be added. There are RV specific brands but if you have a decent gaarage I would consider a portable and just store it in the garage when not needed, or even use it in the garge if it has washer/dryer hookups.

IMHO brand isn't nearly as important as it checking off the boxes for YOU. Others will chime in with their thoughts.

If its a 3 axle then a 4500/450 is minimum IMO.

[Raptor 429]

That's exciting!
We are part timers and love our toy hauler. Be sure pick the unit that best fits your specific needs would be my advice. Depending on where your lot is, climate year around will determine if you need a winter skirt, third air conditioner etc.

Anyway the truck part can be tricky and expensive with the heavy toy haulers. You will need a vehicle that is rated to tow 21k pounds and handle 3820 lbs in the bed which will be much more than that when loaded. In short you need payload of 4500 - 5500 lbs and towing capacity of say 22k lbs to be safe. Each truck is rated depending on how it's equipted which makes finding one a bid tidious. Your almost certainly in the 1 ton diesel probably dually range. We found a ram with regular 6.7 diesel with 4:10 rear gears to get max tow high enough. Ram also has an ho (high output) that will do it too. My second choice would have been a Ford f-450. But again the devil is in the details with these trucks. If you know your pin weight and gvwr then you will need to make sure the prospective truck surpasses those requirements.

Lastly if I were considering full time I would want a backup plan if everything went wrong. Heat or ac failure, site flood or whatever. Where are you going for six months to weather whatever storm hits. And speaking of storms, if your purchasing new be ready to have a lot of recalls and problems to work out. Nothing comes out perfect these days so be sure to have a plan when your trailer is in the shop being worked on. We have found 1 year old used trailers have most of those bugs worked out. Very good luck on your exciting new adventure!

[wiredgeorge]

Well, that is a BIG trailer! There seems to be several heartland owner forums out there and hat might be the place to get brand specific feedback. From what I know, most brands will have detractors and the best way to avoid headaches when purchasing is to find a certified RV tech and let him go over the unit PRIOR to signing to point out things that are of concern. Good luck!

[JRTJH]

I'd first ask, "WHY AN RV (recreational vehicle) rather than a manufactured home (single wide or double wide if more space is needed)????

The costs are essentially the same, livability in a manufactured home is significantly improved in hot or cold areas, space is significantly improved (400 sq ft vs 1100+ square feet) and since it's not going to be moved (no tow vehicle) then mobility is not a consideration.

RV's are not "designed to be 4 season homes" they are designed to be "mobile 3 season recreational vehicles". Most are "very poor at energy efficiency" and there are LOTS of parts that simply are not necessary for permanent housing. Many of those parts, if they fail, will cause your RV to become uninhabitable until repaired. Things like the 50-60% efficiency rated furnace, small water heater (or problem prone continuous water heater), single pane windows, poor insulation, no skirting and limited use holding tanks that require maintenance and/or dumping on a regular basis are all things that you simply don't have to contend with in a manufactured home.

Things like natural gas or "all electric" homes provide continuous heat and cooking for winter living. You don't get that in an RV. Sure, there's work arounds to "lifting those 30 pound LP tanks to have them refilled every 3 or 4 days during the winter" or having batteries go bad and losing heat during a cold snap or having a frozen water line in the basement and not having any water in the trailer or having a frozen sewer hose and not being able to dump the holding tanks until it thaws, or just having the hassle of holding tanks in the first place, if this is a "planned permanent home".....

I'd urge you to consider other options for a "full time residence" if this is going to be a "home for an elderly mother and her late middle age daughter"...

RV's look attractive as an option, but when you "dig under the surface and consider the management issues of living in one permanently" there are significantly better "full time home options"....

[dutchmensport]

Another option is to consider a "Park Model" trailer or a "Destination" trailer. I think the difference is, "Park Models" do not have holding tanks. They need to be plumbed directly into a sewer line, like a house. "Destination" trailers have holding tanks like an RV, but pretty much everything else is like a Park Model.

It's worth looking into, especially if the trailer is not going to move.

[flybouy]

If you don't plan on towing it you may want to consider a manufactured home in a retirement community. Fivers and toy haulers tend to be tall and require steps up into the unit and steps into the living room or bedroom. A mobile home will be easier to access, have appliances found in homes,and have 2 or more bedrooms without the maintenance of slide outs. Just something to consider.

[formyfelinebabies]

First of all, thank you all for all of your responses they are all helpful and instead of individually answering each of you I’ll try to do a blanket answer.

I cannot believe I did not think of the dishwasher in the garage. What a fabulous suggestion. I think that is the perfect solution. I can easily modify plumbing to do washer, dryer and dishwasher.

I’ve been researching the Ford 450. The only thing that worries me is the “non-gentle ride when not towing.” I hope I can find something else large enough that’s maybe not a dully so it’ll ride a little nicer. But I really prefer diesel. Your post was extremely helpful as I’m not that great with engines or chassis even though I can handle just about anything on the house part

As to why we are doing an RV on an RV lot. I currently own a large house on three lots and it’s just way too much work. Moms care is all I can handle. I’ve owned about eight different RVs, lived full-time in several of them for up to eight months at a time. I love rvs. I’ll say it again I love Rv’s…. If I never lived in anything but an RV the rest of my life, I’d be like a pig in mud. I also own a lot on a lake in a community for a double wide trailer that was destroyed during Ian. We can live there in the RV until November 2024, but not permanently, until mobile is replaced. Prices are horrendous, lead times Are horrendous permitting is taking almost a year… it is an absolute mess almost a year after the hurricane…

We have a forester MBS 2401T that I consider our daily driver. Mom can lay flat or in her recliner. She has a bathroom and while I’m shopping she’s in air conditioning I know where she is. I know she can’t get hurt and I’m within a minute if she needs me.

we spent eight hours in a closet last hurricane we won’t stay this time and that is our bug out vehicle. And it is our if we wanna go to the keys for the weekend vehicle. I have free storage on site at the RV lot. I love that little RV. We would stick with just that but it’s too much for Mom I and the cat in 24 feet.

When Mom first came to live with me, we lived in a 450 square-foot single wide. She was not well, and I never strayed far (still don’t) and we never once were unhappy there. Space is overrated especially if you love the one you’re with more than anything.

I looked into destination trailers, park models the main negatives are they can’t be towed like a fifth wheel when and if the time comes that it’s just me and I will takeoff with that. I feel also that a fifth wheel would be easier to sell if need be. My friends have learned when I buy something to say so how long are you going to keep this one lol I do like to buy and sell RVs and boats and trailers and houses… it’s not for everyone but I love it. We have considered the steps mom is able to step and stand but not walk for much distance she can use her walker, but I always walk with her holding her waist. The toy hauler gives us the option of no steps with the retractable bed in garage or the steps to the bedroom will not be a problem once a day. That’s why second sleeping area is so important.

What appeals to me more than anything is knowing that I can drive off that lot and there’s nothing to worry about because maintenance is included and I can go wherever I want and I can come back whenever I want and my place is still there. And after Ian I won’t be around for the storm or worse the immediate aftermath. I can’t imagine anything more liberating than that.

I have to skirt if it’s a fifth wheel so I will be putting up skirting if anyone has any ideas for inexpensive ways to do that. And does anyone have advice what I can do to keep the chassis in great shape while sitting I saw a picture where someone lifted the unit up on Jack’s, I’m not sure since I’ve never owned a fifth wheel what that was about.

Edit
Omg I almost forgot to tell you how mom and I laughed about her old daughter , I take no offense, I am old,56, but don’t tell my inner child that thinks she is still 25! ��☺️

[formyfelinebabies]

Out running errands in the MBS and we wanted pizza so we stopped.
Life can’t get better than this.

[Raptor 429]

So it sounds like your in salt water country. I think the question to ask is how to best protect the unit from prolonged salt exposure. I'm not sure of the answer to that. You will probably want the tires completely off the ground so they don't rot. I think people block the corners to make it more stable. I don't think that helps or hurts in the protection department.
If your not in freezing territory you can skirt it with whatever you want. The handiest I've seen is riveting snap buttons along the side. Then the other half of the snap on whever material you decide on. You can then install and remove the skirt quickly. Watch some YouTube though and you'll see something that is right for you.
Finally I didn't think I'd like driving a dually either. If you get something with airbags it will go a long way in improving the feel of the ride. I really wanted a single rear for ours too. I see people doing it. Knowing what I know now I'm very happy I went with the dually. But do your research and you will find the best solution. If your only towing in emergency situations I could see going non dually. If however you are ever going to be out west running 80 mph up and down hills I would not be caught without a dually.
Cheers

[chuckster57]

All I can say is you go girl!!!

I don’t have any recommendations on skirting and as far as leveling, your rig should have auto leveling. It will most likely have 6 jacks, and as a rule they are very stable. I’ll let others that have the BIG trailers chime in about cribbing and such.

I have an OLD dually and installed airbags. When not towing it’s not like riding on a rigid frame with the bags at 10 psi.

[sourdough]

I'm going to chime in to share a thought or three. That's a 21,000lb., triple axle trailer over 45' long. Mucho, mucho trailer.

I understand not intending to tow it but I'm not clear on the intent for the 5th for trips here and there, the Keys etc. Is that for the Class B or whatever that pic is, the trailer, both?

If you figure the pin at 23% that's 4830 lbs., far beyond the limit of a SRW 350...and that's not including "stuff". If you are living in it there will be lots of stuff which you will either have to throw in the truck, throw on the ground or in the trailer and "stuff" has weight. I wouldn't be considering anything other than the 450. It sounds like you are keeping the other vehicle for going here and there, the 450 would tow the trailer in the event of a storm.

I spend from Oct. to May/June in FL. I have delayed trips due to hurricanes and arrived right after Michael. I would never stay in an RV with a storm like those coming in. I also would be headed up the road somewhere safe and we are prepared to do that. I don't see how you're going to head out from mid FL, E or W, and drive hundreds of miles with a SRW truck overloaded by thousands of lbs.

[formyfelinebabies]

Yes, salt water, Englewood.

Thanks chuckster, I hear that alot and am happiest when living an unconventional life while still appearing to be “normal “. I’m happiest when listening to my own drum.

For now I live for her while trying to make decisions that work for me also.

I agree the dually is the only choice for that trailer. I just needed to hear the facts for confirmation so thank you. After crossing seven mile bridge With an undersized truck and TT I learned my lesson, just because it can pull it doesn’t mean you should. and ignore the salesman!!!

Fifth will be stationary for whatever length I have her with me. Fifth will be mobile after… or sold. class B is daily and short trips now and in foreseeable future. Most of the extra poundage that is not sold or donated will be left in storage on rv lot in air conditioned shed. We would flee storms in the B and if I lose the fifth it’s less than what Ian did. I’ve always stayed but that was just me and in a house. I would never stay in an rv… ever… we were protected here until they took those Indian bones! Don’t get me started on that subject. 😒

So it’s ok to lift a fifth off the ground with levelers? For how long? Do they have to be exercised like a generator?

If I could just overcome her irrational fear of a big DP we would be back in one. I know those, I’ve lived and traveled in those. Im comfortable in a tag towing a full size truck. That’s my preference. But her anxiety has no sense.
I love the forums because of opinions. I love the forums because it makes me think. I love the forums because I am so isolated from others being a caregiver and I make too many decisions because it’s what momma wants.

Sourdough said “ That's a 21,000lb., triple axle trailer over 45' long. Mucho, mucho trailer”.

I need to hear and see that in simple statements from experienced people because I know I can handle it but do i WANT to… makes me think.

Maybe I should go with the 35BH that is smaller and build the deck off the doorway she can access easily…

Thank you again for your replies

[sourdough]

IMO dealing with RVs you can approach it in one of 2 ways; the trailer dictates the truck (an ample truck) or the truck dictates the trailer (a size safe for the truck). Many people fail to think about that and end up unsafe. Some folks come into circumstances where they have no choice in the combo but in your case choose one or the other and then complement that (either the truck or the trailer) with what fits it.

Since you've been there in/before/after a hurricane you've seen the chaos that the highways become. You just don't want an overloaded truck trying to negotiate in/around the crazies that will be out. Another consideration would be fuel tank size and travel distance. We've been through there when every station was closed along the highway for great distances because there was no power or damage. If you are out of fuel you are out of luck.

For consideration; sounds like you don't want a dually; I understand that because I don't want one either. In that case my preference dictates what I can/can't have in a trailer. If you want a SRW truck (as do I) then you're going to be looking at a 1 ton and you said you prefer a diesel. That being the case it really limits your right off the bat on the size of trailer. The payload capacity of that kind of truck usually runs maybe 3200-3500lbs. (maybe less). Take the gvwr of any potential trailer and multiply it by 23% for pin weight to be fairly safe (mine is 22%). Deduct that amount from the payload listed above (found on the yellow/white sticker inside the driver door) then leave enough extra payload capacity above that for the weight of the hitch, people and any gear you would throw in the bed of the truck. I can tell you now that a 1 ton, SRW diesel is going to limit you to a smaller, lighter 5th wheel. Some things to think about as you contemplate all this.

[formyfelinebabies]

Thank you Sourdough, very helpful response. also it was a great explanation for pin/weight capacity. You made it so simple when I’ve seen explanations that made my eyes cross.

I have decided we need to make the trailer fit the truck… we have already viewed several options and the lead choice is Alliance 395DS, 13,920/2904.
If I have it correct a Ford 250 or 350 SWD would be sufficient. I read the pin is over 6000! Is that correct? I do not see the pin weight on the Ford site, am I missing it? Also does the axle size make a big difference in capacity?

If a hurricane threatens we will be leaving in our Forester so I plan on buying trailer first and having it delivered and get truck at a later date. I do want to stay s

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by formyfelinebabies

Thank you Sourdough, very helpful response. also it was a great explanation for pin/weight capacity. You made it so simple when I’ve seen explanations that made my eyes cross.

I have decided we need to make the trailer fit the truck… we have already viewed several options and the lead choice is Alliance 395DS, 13,920/2904.
If I have it correct a Ford 250 or 350 SWD would be sufficient. I read the pin is over 6000! Is that correct? I do not see the pin weight on the Ford site, am I missing it? Also does the axle size make a big difference in capacity?

If a hurricane threatens we will be leaving in our Forester so I plan on buying trailer first and having it delivered and get truck at a later date. I do want to stay s

The pin weight of a 5th wheel is the weight the trailer places on the truck hitch. The Paradigm you mentioned has a "dry weight" of 13920 lbs. Even if you move it empty, you need to add things like batteries and propane tanks, etc. That gives you an approximate trailer weight of 14500 lbs and 23 percent of that is about 3300 lbs. Add the weight of the hitch and passengers and whatever is in your tow vehicle... you are around 4K lbs payload in/on the truck. The trailer's gross weight is 16800 lbs if fully loaded and the pin weight will be about 3800 lbs plus weight of hitch/passengers and what is in the truck. A single axle 3/4 ton probably won't cut it but a one ton will.

The payload on my diesel F350 is about 4K lbs. I would be a little nervous about hauling that camper with almost no loading and would definitely not pull it fully loaded as I would exceed my payload.

When buying a truck, remember a diesel eats payload (about 800 lbs vs a gas truck), a 4x4 eats payload (extra axle) and trucks that are higher trim level eat payload. Lots of folks use their tow vehicle as a grocery getter and love the extras but if only pulling a heavy trailer, perhaps a bare bone 2 wheel drive makes sense.... Steer clear of 3/4 tons for the campers you are looking at as they don't ride better or cost a lot less than one tons.

[formyfelinebabies]

I’m having a hard time keeping track of the different pin weights as it appears so many things change it.

I don’t think I will be happy with any less of a trailer than one with a 15000 to 16000 weight. Because of floorplan and finish. So I have to stick with 1 ton and probably gas. If your truck has pin of 4000 wiredGeorge that’s too low… and I used incorrect weight. Thanks for catching that. Some sources say Ford F350 has a pin of 7000, but I’ve also read much lower. How on earth can I choose a truck if every little tweak changes pin??🥹

[chuckster57]

IMHO, anytime your looking at a 3 axle trailer that means dually, 450/4500.

[sourdough]

A truck does not have a pin weight, the trailer does - it's the weight of the nose of a 5th wheel that lands on the hitch in the bed of the truck.. A truck will have a payload/carrying load capacity, gross vehicle weight rating (gvwr), axle ratings (gawrs front and rear) and a gcvwr (gross combined vehicle weight rating) which is the weight of the truck and trailer combined. For your purposes pay close attention to the payload of the truck (you said want to stick with SRW) and the gvwr of the trailer (figure 23% of the gvwr of the trailer for the pin/"nose" weight). Many times you have to look at the trailer specs and add the dry weight of the trailer and then the carrying capacity of the trailer to come to the gvwr then calculate pin weight. Lots of stuff I know.

There is a catch to the "I'll go gas so I can have more payload/trailer weight". A gas engine has limitations. I use a gas engine and have not wanted a diesel...that comes at a cost - towing ability. You can put a larger trailer on a gas engine truck because of the higher payload. With a one ton you can exceed the ability of a gas engine by trying to max the payload of the truck. I always said 12k gvwr on a trailer was the magic number to require a diesel. Then they came up with more powerful gas engines, 8/10 speed transmissions etc. They have made a tremendous difference.

I tow a 14,xxx gvwr 5th wheel. I tow it with a gas engine 1 ton with about 4k payload. I scale 13, 300? (memory) and my pin is a little less than 3k lbs. - usually. That leaves a bit for hitch (Andersen light weight), us and puppy then our normal truck bed stuff - we couldn't stand more weight AND as importantly, the gas engine can't handle that kind of weight unless you just wind it up and put longevity in jeopardy. Dropping a 15k scaled trailer on the back of a gas 1 ton with a 4k payload to get out of Dodge (FL) in the event of an impending hurricane...doable. Trying to use that combo, limited in many aspects, as a travel combo to see new places? Not a good idea.

[wiredgeorge]

Didn't mean to add confusion. Pin weight is the amount of weight a 5th wheel places on a truck. Payload is the amount of weight a truck is rated to hold. This payload will include the trailer's pin weight, the hitch weight, passengers and anything else in the truck.

Don't read about "MAXIMUM PAYLOAD" as a spec for a truck. The truck's payload is stated on a yellow/white placard in the door frame. Most one ton trucks have a payload in the 4000 lb range; a little more or less and most one ton dually trucks have a payload of over 5K lbs; generally between 5-6K.

A fifth wheel with 16K gross weight needs a dually. All F450s pickups are duallys and have a better turning ratio that an F350 and enough payload for most any 5th wheel.