Leaking Level Up cylinder

WTA · 10-31-2015, 03:42 PM

In July 2014 we traded for a new 2014 Alpine 3555RL. Our first real shakedown trip was our winter trip to Florida where we spend four months. The unit has the six point Level Up system on it. By the time we made it to Florida and with our use in the driveway, the Level Up system may have been utilized 8 to 10 times with no problems being apparent. We set up at our destination on or about December 15th. In mid January I noticed that the middle Level Up jack on the drivers side was starting to leak and hydraulic fluid was accumulating on the foot pad.

I called the local Keystone dealer about a warranty repair to the jack. I had the option to bring the trailer in or pay $70 to have them come and look at the jack, take pictures and submit a claim to Keystone. I opted to have them come out to our site rather than break camp. Their tech looked at the jack, took a few pictures with his telephone and proclaimed that the system was contaminated and all four rear jacks would need to be replaced. I asked him about the front jacks. He said they are on a separate system and are ok. I said they all use the same tank. He made no further comments and left. This particular Keystone dealer had already developed a rather poor reputation among the other folks staying at our RV park, to be polite about it.

I can't remember the exact sequence of events following but it went much like this. After several days I hear from the service manager that Keystone has denied the claim. Go figure. The service manager says I should call Keystone. I call Keystone, talk to at least 3 different guys at different times, send numerous emails and some very good pictures. All this occurring between January and April. I even advise the Keystone reps to just fix the one leaking jack and worry about the others later if they start leaking.

Knowing that I'm pulling out April 15th I contact the local dealer to see what is happening with the claim. He wants me to pay for all four jacks up front. I tell him to just forget about it and I will take care of the problem later.

I had previously asked one of the Keystone reps to just send me a jack and I would put it on myself. No can do. Must go through a dealer.

When I get home from Florida I call Keystone again and get the same story about going through a dealer. I call my selling dealer service manager and go through the whole story with him. He wants an email and pictures. I'm sending him an email as he is 2.5 hours away and I don't want to haul the trailer to him just to look at. Not hearing from the service manager after a couple weeks I call him. He is busy but will call back. I'm still waiting on that call.

Now we are thinking about getting ready for this years trip to Florida and I decide I better get that jack fixed. I call a local hydraulic shop and ask the owner if he thinks he can repair the jack. He says he probably can so I take it off and deliver it to him. As I hand it to him he says, “yes, I can fix that.” The next morning he calls and says my jack is ready. I ask what the damage is and he says $129. That afternoon I have the jack back on and everything seems just fine.

These jacks are supposedly not repairable and cost about $550 where I have seen them advertised for sale.

With my paid receipt in hand I decide I'll give Keystone a call and see if I can get reimbursed for my $129 expenditure. I ask for the last guy I talked with but he is not there anymore. The lady I do get to talk with has me send her a copy of the receipt but says I may get turned down because I'm out of warranty. I told her I wasn't out of warranty last January. Sure enough, after about a week I get an email turning me down for being out of warranty. But I do get the suggestion to contact my dealer and submit a claim for reimbursement through the “proper channels”.

I am wondering should I contact the Florida Keystone dealer who wanted to rip off me, Keystone and ultimately Lippert or should I contact my selling dealer who has yet to respond to my last phone call. Which one do you suppose would want to do the “proper” paperwork for a reimbursement with probably no compensation on their part?

At least now I know for sure that the jacks can be repaired by a hydraulic service facility and that I don't have to spring for a new jack if the problem is just a leaking seal. Now I wonder just how much of a job it would be to tear a cylinder down and replace the seal yourself. My guy charged $48 dollars for what he called a “kit”. The rest of the bill was labor and taxes.

I would think that for $129 Keystone would want to have a satisfied or at least somewhat mollified customer that wouldn't take the time to spout off on a forum about his experience. I know that I do let the warranty experience influence my future purchasing decisions. That is why I have only owned one Ford, one Pontiac and one Oldsmobile.

If only Honda, Toyota or Subaru would get into the American RV business we could see some major changes in construction quality and service.

**chuckster57** · 10-31-2015, 03:55 PM

First, sorry you had so much trouble. I would give your selling dealer the opportunity to ask Keystone for a refund, but I would also have them include names and dates of the other dealer.

If that does nothing, then I personally would contact Keystone one last time, and if nothing comes of it, consider it a lesson learned. $129.00 isn't cheap but it isn't expensive either. And just for the record, Keystone isn't the only ones using lippert components.

As far as the warranty claim, again they ALL make you jump through hoops, and cross all your t's. My experience is Keystone is better than most. I hope your situation is settled in a fair manner.

bobbecky · 10-31-2015, 08:53 PM

After your warranty period is up, and sometimes even before it is up, it seems that just contacting the component manufacturer is much better, because many of the items on these rigs have a longer warranty than the general one year from Keystone. Camping World replaced a failed A/C unit, Dometic, by just contacting Dometic direct, even though the rig was still within the one year warranty. In the end, Keystone doesn't lose on most warranty claims, because the vendor for the failed component picks up the tab. You might just call Lippert and see what they say. After all this, you got off cheap, getting the cylinder repaired instead of the hassle of dealing with an RV repair shop.

Javi · 11-01-2015, 07:05 AM

To be honest I don't know why anyone ever bothers to try using the Keystone warranty for anything except the trailer itself. You will fare much better and the repair time will usually be greatly lessened by using an independent RV repairman and the particular accessory manufacturer's warranty. In almost every instance the manufacturer's warranty is valid for a longer period and the coverage more extensive than any offered by Keystone.

The DW and I have enjoyed our Keystone trailers over the years, but we learned early on that the dealers and Keystone will drag their feet before finally granting warranty coverage or flat out deny the claim. While more often than not the manufacture of the actual product, i.e. Dometic, Lippert, Attwood, etc. will readily approve the warranty claim if submitted directly to them via an approved warranty service repairman.

WTA · 11-01-2015, 03:07 PM

I'll give Lippert a call tomorrow and see what they have to say. I really had not considered contacting them directly.

Way Of Life · 11-02-2015, 12:29 AM

We developed a leak on one of our leveling legs as well last November 16th when we took delivery of our 2015 Fuzion 325. I contacted our salesman at the selling dealership as well as calling Lippert Components myself. By the time the service manager from Camping World of Omaha called me back a couple of hours later I already had a warranty claim number prvoided to me from Lippert that I forwarded on to the service manager. He then requested several photos and had the claim approved. I worked with them to allow me to stop the leak using Teflon thread tape for the summer and now our unit is in for warranty repairs. Could not have asked for better service and outcome from both Camping World and Lippert.

Good luck to you.

WTA · 11-02-2015, 06:22 AM

Just got off the phone with Lippert. The Lippert rep said I have to go through Keystone according to their contract with Keystone. There is nothing he can do to help.

Ron · 11-02-2015, 06:27 AM

Sorry for your troubles, we had a ram replaced under warranty, being in the Excavation business and rebuilding hydraulic cylinders often, I asked if they make a kit, the same question you asked, I was told no, thought that was kind of crazy so if I ever developed another leak I was going to take one down to the hydraulic shop to see if they had the parts, glad to know that you had one rebuilt and know there are parts available....Good luck with Lippert...

WTA · 11-02-2015, 07:50 AM

I'm not so much concerned about being out $129 as I am about the principal of the thing. If the dealer in Florida had been an honest upright guy I could have had a new cylinder courtesy of Keystone installed in a month or so. Keystone would have been out $700-$800 or so and I out $140 for two $70 service calls to our site. I could have also used a mobile service guy who frequented our RV park but I would have had to pay him and wait for reimbursement from Keystone in the amount of $750.

If I had gone the route the dealer wanted, I would have up fronted about $2,500 for four jacks and installation of same. Maybe Keystone would have agreed that one jack was leaking and paid on that one but I'm sure the other three would have been deemed good and there would have been no reimbursement on those.

Knowing now that these jacks are repairable makes the situation more tolerable.

The owner of the place where I had my jack rebuilt showed me one off a motor home that I would think was unrepairable. It was one of those with double return springs and about 3 inches in diameter. He had cut the outside cylinder into two pieces, replaced the seals and then welded it back together.

**JRTJH** · 11-02-2015, 09:05 AM

Not that it will help at this point in time, but another "avenue for repair" is the local farm tractor service center. A hydraulic cylinder is the same "animal" whether it's installed on a farm tractor, a log splitter or a fifth wheel. They vary by size and brand, but are essentially the same device. It's been my experience that the local John Deere dealer's service department has the parts in stock for almost any hydraulic component. And, if by some chance they don't have it in stock, their "warehouse supplier" can have it delivered to them on the next "regularly scheduled delivery day".

I've found that RV dealers are more the "remove and replace" type maintenance (can you spell COSTLY) while hydraulic repair services such as the tractor service department are more the "repair and upgrade" type facility. Plus, if it says, "marine" or "recreational vehicle" (fun) in the component name, seems there's always a significant "upcharge" over the same component that's packaged as a "necessary working part"......

Another "avenue for savings" is the local "starter/alternator" repair facility. Usually advertised as an "automotive electric repair" facility, they have the parts to rebuild almost any DC motor. Many of the leveler motors, landing gear motors and hydraulic pump motors used in RV's are the same as those used in other applications. Often a replacement motor from Lippert or from the RV parts store is well into the "hundreds of bucks". The last time I checked, a simple rear stabilizer motor was over $300. Many times those motors can be rebuilt (often with improved, more reliable components) at a price significantly less than buying a new motor. It pays to check around for repair services that don't have RV in their advertising.

JMHO

Javi · 11-02-2015, 12:28 PM

So very true John, sad but true nonetheless.

**chuckster57** · 11-02-2015, 12:41 PM

Dealers are "remove and replace" because it's cheaper to pay a tech .5 to swap a part rather than the time and parts to rebuild.

Along with that, there isn't many of us left that can actually take something apart and put it back together LOL!

**JRTJH** · 11-02-2015, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckster57

Dealers are "remove and replace" because it's cheaper to pay a tech .5 to swap a part rather than the time and parts to rebuild.

Along with that, there isn't many of us left that can actually take something apart and put it back together LOL!

To use Javi's words from one post up, "So very true, Chuck. Sad, but true nonetheless.

WTA · 11-10-2015, 05:02 PM

Took advice from azhunter1963 on another thread and filed with the Northern Indiana BBB today.

WTA · 11-17-2015, 01:02 PM

Got a call today from my Keystone Owner Relations Retail Advisor. She has been advised by “management” that they wish to reimburse me in the amount of $129. Had to fill out a W-9 for them. I told her it wasn't necessary since it was less than $600 but she wouldn't buy that. She wanted the W-9 as quickly as possible because checks are run every two weeks and I need to get it in before the next run. Forgot to ask when the next check run was.

WTA · 01-05-2016, 12:58 PM

Got my December mail today. It seems Keystone wasn't able to get that check cut that they promised me on November 17th. Reopened my complaint with the Northern Indiana BBB.

dcg9381 · 01-05-2016, 01:21 PM

JRTJH,
I don't know the Lippert Jacks - but the HWH jacks are "proprietary" - sealed by some means and mostly un-repairable by hydraulic shops that aren't willing to grind or cut on them. I assume they are that way by design - so you don't have many options.

Are the Lippert rams more shop friendly?

WTA, Sorry that Keystone couldn't see the logic in a good faith repair attempt. Hope they reimburse you.

**JRTJH** · 01-05-2016, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcg9381

JRTJH,
I don't know the Lippert Jacks - but the HWH jacks are "proprietary" - sealed by some means and mostly un-repairable by hydraulic shops that aren't willing to grind or cut on them. I assume they are that way by design - so you don't have many options.

Are the Lippert rams more shop friendly?

dcg9381,

Read post #9 in this thread: http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...ghlight=welded

It's a perfect example of how things are done, "when motivated"... You're right, there are "repair shops" that will not work on "proprietary products" and then there are repair shops that will just simply fix what you bring in that's broken... All you have to do is find the repair shop, not the "proprietary fixers".... Good Luck.

Pull Toy · 01-05-2016, 02:52 PM

Good Sam is another good "mediator/motivator" , teamed up with BBB locally/statewide/nationwide, and even your local TV Channel' "On Your Side" investigator.... and your states "Consumer Protection Agency"... embarrass them enough, and they'll pay you to go away! Try everyone, even the guy who delivered the rig to the dealer.... for $129.00 you can afford to be a real PIA, just on principal!

For a toll free call you can even call your Senator/Congressman, and demand a RV LEMON LAW!

Like the old lawyers saying goes "Even go after the dog. if you know his name"... they don't want negative publicity... and bad P.R. really upsets their GOOD GUY appearance.

I'm just sayin"

dcg9381 · 01-05-2016, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

It's a perfect example of how things are done, "when motivated"... You're right, there are "repair shops" that will not work on "proprietary products" and then there are repair shops that will just simply fix what you bring in that's broken... All you have to do is find the repair shop, not the "proprietary fixers".... Good Luck.

Thanks, I didn't catch that.. I know that it's trivial to get hydraulics fixed on a Ford tractor, but on those HWH levelers and apparently the Lippert ones too, many shops won't touch 'em...

I don't really understand the lack of warranty on this stuff, it's like "case closed" if warranty expires during while a repair is still pending.

Glad it worked out for the OP.

I joined good Sam for the discounts and because I saw they had consumer advocacy, which I haven't had to use. I only wish they could respect my "no mail" requests...

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