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Old 07-10-2019, 11:43 AM   #1
LHaven
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Tongue too heavy?

I have been told that ideal tongue weight is 11-15% of total trailer weight.

What are the downsides of exceeding this number?

My particular trailer has just about zero storage space behind the wheels. Propane, battery, fresh tank, pass-thru hole, and the under-mattress storage are all right in the front; plus, I've got a seriously upgraded mattress, and a ProPride hitch that runs 195 lb. all by itself.

I'm not worried about the TV being able to take the weight, because I'm well within specs, but I'm interested in the reasons that not more than 15% is recommended. I know too little tongue weight encourages sway, but I don't know what too much results in.
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:48 AM   #2
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Here's a page from GMC which talks about it (I have a GMC ):
https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/...or-safe-towing
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:57 AM   #3
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Unfortunately, this page talks about "too much weight" as a possible truck/tire overload condition. The truck can handle the current tongue and towing weight with lots of room to spare, it's just the percentage balance that's off recommendation. If I added bricks to the back of the trailer (somehow), all the numbers would be technically OK.

I guess I could restate my question as asking what are the downsides of having a "light back end" on the trailer?
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:09 PM   #4
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Typically a travel trailer tongue weight ratio calls for between 10-15% and a fifth wheel calls for 15-25% of the total trailer weight.

As far as I know (within reason, of course) having a tongue/pin weight greater than that percentage has no significant impact on towing. Having a tongue/pin weight significantly lower than the recommendation can lead to sway.

I'd suspect that you're talking about a relatively small "over the max recommendation"? If so, and if your trailer tows well, I wouldn't worry about it as long as you're not exceeding some maximum weight rating on the truck or trailer. Remember, there's a maximum rating on the coupler as well as on the hitch. Usually it's stamped on the A-Frame connector part of the coupler.

Overall, I don't think you'll find a problem with being "slightly over the recommended tongue weight percentage" as long as you don't exceed the hitch, receiver, trailer coupler ratings. Of course, it goes without saying, also don't exceed the GVW of either vehicle, tire ratings, etc, etc, etc..... <sigh> But you already knew that......

That said, if you're talking about a significant percentage over the recommended maximum, I'd want to be sure that I'm not exceeding the A frame structure ratings, the welds that attach the A frame to the trailer rails, etc. But that much tongue weight is something I think would be "near impossible" to achieve in most trailers. There just isn't that much cargo space for "overly heavy items" on the tongue or in the front storage areas.

ADDED: As an "also thought" remember that when using a weight distribution hitch, a portion of the tongue weight is transferred back to the trailer axles/wheels. With many trailers produced prior to the last couple of model years, tires and axles were "minimally sized and easily overloaded". So there is a possibility that you might "crank the W/D bars down tight enough to transfer a portion of that excess percentage back to the axles and could overload the tires and/or axles. While probably not a common occurrence, I suppose it's possible.
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Old 07-10-2019, 12:42 PM   #5
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I believe John touched on the important factors pertaining to that "ideal" range. I think it's the range that would typically provide the best, safest towing experience. I also think it is primarily for a guideline to make sure folks put enough weight on the tongue vs loading the trailer up tail heavy and causing issues.

More weight on the tongue might we unwanted in the situations so many find themselves in with too small a tow vehicle - you have to have enough weight to keep from having towing problems (hence the guidelines) but you want as little as possible because you have no payload. In your case it isn't an issue but could be in others. And, as was pointed out, there is a limit to how much you want on the tongue due to the limitations of the towing equipment (hitch/ball/receiver/coupler etc.) - those numbers can vary all over the place depending on how an individual equips the TV and can get you in trouble as well.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:16 PM   #6
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Also keeping in mind that the more you push down on that ball behind that rear axle ,the more weight you pull off the front steering axle which could lead to a light front end and a road walking issue.
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Old 07-10-2019, 10:42 PM   #7
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I'm not worried about a light front end, because my TV's pin weight capacity is way over my actual tongue weight, plus I do have a WD hitch.

Good point about the A-frame welds. I'll try to find the limit number on the frame, assuming it's not obscured by the ProPride hitch. I'm sure that a significant proportion of the "excess" tongue weight is caused by items on the A-frame itself, like the 200 lb. hitch(!), the propane, and battery, so that wouldn't show up in stress to the body welds.

I ses that nowhere did I mention the actual weight itself, which is 1,100 lb. (assuming my tongue scale isn't lying to me). In absolute terms, that doesn't seem to be an unreasonable figure.
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Old 07-11-2019, 03:01 AM   #8
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Pin weight is not the same as tongue weight. Pin weight capacity for a given truck is going to be higher than tongue weight capacity for the same truck.

In fact, pin weight will usually add to the weight on the front axle, while tongue weight will reduce it (except for the effects of the WD hitch, of course).

However, our trailer is (if I recall) GVWR of 8,800, so 15% of that would be 1,320 - so I would guess the trailer's frame/coupler should be able to handle at least that much.
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Old 07-11-2019, 06:56 AM   #9
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A lot of the capacity depends on the trailer and construction. A "typical, pre 2010 standard weight RV" is/was built with 10" boxed A frame members and 10 or 12 inch trailer frame rails.

Today's "ultra-light" trailers are often built with "z-frame stamped" interlocking frames and 6" boxed A frame members.

A older "pop-up camper" may have been built with 2x2" A frame members and a larger "pop-up camper" or a "lightweight fiberglass bubble RV" may be built with 3" or 4" boxed a frame members......

Why all of the above???? Depending on the specific trailer, how it was built and for what it was "designed to accomplish" will have a major impact on what it can "survive".... Yes, seems "over the top to use "survive", but there's just no way a modern "stamped frame ultralight 36' trailer frame" can survive some of the "overloading or towing stresses" that were common in an older, "heavy frame RV" of the same length and weighing nearly twice as much.

So, knowing how your trailer is constructed and what weights it can support without damage is "smart ownership"...

That said, typically 1100 pounds is not an uncommon tongue weight on a "normal sized RV" but can be nearly double the anticipated weight on a smaller ultra-light RV. So, what is "OK" for a "conventional trailer" may be a significant overload on a different construction technique.
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:13 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkEHansen View Post
Pin weight is not the same as tongue weight. Pin weight capacity for a given truck is going to be higher than tongue weight capacity for the same truck.

In fact, pin weight will usually add to the weight on the front axle, while tongue weight will reduce it (except for the effects of the WD hitch, of course).
Oh, **&#&@. I had a truck salesman tell me flat out just this week that "pin weight" (a term I'd never heard before) is the term truck people use for what trailer people call "tongue weight." If that's not so after all, I have no idea where one would find it, because it doesn't appear in any of their literature.
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Old 07-11-2019, 09:31 AM   #11
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Pin weight is what a 5th-wheel has. Tongue weight is what a bumper-pull trailer has. A TV can generally handle much higher pin weight than tongue weight because the pin is positioned just over (or usually just in front of) the rear axle - while the tongue is positioned far behind the rear axle.

If you look at the towing capacities published by the various vehicle manufacturers, you'll see they usually list both.
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Old 07-11-2019, 10:19 AM   #12
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I would think a good place to start in this instance would be the sticker found on the underside of the hitch itself, which should list the capacity for said hitch. You have a tongue weight scale, so the number from that, plus the weight of your hitch, should for all intensive purposes, equal the tongue weight.

On the sticker on the hitch, it will tell you maximum tongue weight when not using a WDH and maximum tongue weight when using a WDH.

To me, if that number is 1100lbs and you are over that, you are exceeding the rating of the hitch. Distributing that weight to the front of the vehicle using the WDH does not reduce the tongue weight however, at least that has always been my recollection.

That said, the only true way to know is going to the scale and having everything read there while loaded for camping.

Also remember payload plays a part in this as well. If your payload sticker says 1620 lbs, and your lucky enough to have the tongue weight within the spec of the hitch, lets just say its at 1100 lbs, that leaves 520 lbs for everything left in the truck itself.

I think they allow for a full tank of gas and 150 lb driver included in that payload rating, but frankly I could probably find multiple guides and sources for any truck out there that conflict or agree with that statement.

Disclaimer...I may be wrong on what I've said, if so, hopefully someone can correct me?
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:08 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by MarkEHansen View Post
Pin weight is what a 5th-wheel has. Tongue weight is what a bumper-pull trailer has.

If you look at the towing capacities published by the various vehicle manufacturers, you'll see they usually list both.
No, that's one of my problems. I have the brochure right in front of me. The entire table (though it does have separate columns for "Conventional Weight carrying," and "Conventional weight distribution," and "5th Wheel /Gooseneck") is clearly marked "Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight Ratings." This is the pull weight -- not the tongue weight. This is the figure dealers like to quote when they tell you the "sure, this'll pull your rig" story, when all the while you'll be violating three other figures.

(Though I now understand what "pin weight" means, thanks. I've never had to deal with 5ers.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by {tpc} View Post
I would think a good place to start in this instance would be the sticker found on the underside of the hitch itself, which should list the capacity for said hitch.

On the sticker on the hitch, it will tell you maximum tongue weight when not using a WDH and maximum tongue weight when using a WDH.
This I agree with. The problem is that this figure appears nowhere in the literature. I've even downloaded the digital copies to search. You have to physically crawl under the truck (that you don't yet have) to get it. Makes it a b* to be sure you are ordering the correct truck, especially when it has to be shipped in from somewhere else.

On my current TV, that hitch is rated 1070 lbs., clearly an issue. Though close, it's not even the largest overload in the chain (which is total payload), so not worth trying to improve in place. This is why we're out looking at trucks.
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Old 07-11-2019, 11:31 AM   #14
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@LHaven - when I look at the trailer towing guide provided by GMC, they show two sets of numbers, one for a ball hitch and one for goose neck/5th wheel.

For the 2018 (this guide only goes up to 2018, but I think the numbers haven't changed for 2019) and a Sierra 3500HD 4WD with the Duramax 6.6L V8 Turbo Diesel, the max trailer towing capacity is 20,000 for ball hitch and 22,700 for 5th-wheel. It then goes into details on figuring the max tongue/pin weight.

FYI.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:06 PM   #15
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I can't find anything similar in the Ford literature. What I have read is a caution that for many of these numbers, you have to rely solely on the stickers on the vehicle, as trim and options for an individual unit detune that individual unit. In the vehicles I've looked at, I've found that some figures, like RGAWR, are rock constant, while the payload figure has been different for nearly every one.
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Old 07-11-2019, 12:55 PM   #16
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I only checked tongue weight when on a normal summer camp trip for 3 days, 2 people. When going hunting I carry a lot more stuff in trailer and also in truck bed. I suspect the tongue weight is higher than. But, so is the truck load. I have never been in a position to check the weights before or on the trips. Bottom line is the truck was level and steering and braking was as if empty. Well really braking is longer because of the combo's vehicle weigh. But, not due to a lighten front axle. With a lightner TV my loading could be to much.
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LHaven View Post

This I agree with. The problem is that this figure appears nowhere in the literature. I've even downloaded the digital copies to search. You have to physically crawl under the truck (that you don't yet have) to get it. Makes it a b* to be sure you are ordering the correct truck, especially when it has to be shipped in from somewhere else.

On my current TV, that hitch is rated 1070 lbs., clearly an issue. Though close, it's not even the largest overload in the chain (which is total payload), so not worth trying to improve in place. This is why we're out looking at trucks.
I'm going to assume your looking at a ford, or ford primarily. What I would do is find the largest closest lot and then go there and look at the hitches on a similar truck you might order. I would bet all f150 come with a "similar" hitch, all f250 a similar hitch, all f350 a similar...you get the picture. They all probably won't be the same, as max tow might be different, and some might have a class iv vs a class v or something like that, but you should see some common traits. Then look at the window sticker or take a pic of it, somewhere along the way you will get an idea.

At that point you can ask the dealer to "build" you your truck. They should be able to guide you through this pretty easily. If they can't or won't, I'd find a different one, but I think you will at least have a better understanding of what you think you will need prior to ordering, and maybe can find one already on a lot.
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:16 AM   #18
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Note to above, payload will be harder to figure out as its on the door jam, but if they have them unlocked you should be able to get that too. I don't think anyone will be able to supply an exact payload number on a custom build until it actually arrives with the sticker on the door. I could be wrong though, I've never "built" my own truck.
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Old 07-15-2019, 08:40 AM   #19
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I called the salesman and asked him to climb under the truck and get me a photo. Later, I found a separate brochure online called the "Ford towing guide" that actually published the hitch limit number. It wasn't one of the brochures he had available in his literature rack. So we're all set, and we're actually waiting for the sales manager as we speak.
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Old 07-15-2019, 09:50 AM   #20
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Hitches and their capacities.

https://www.curtmfg.com/understandin...railer-hitches
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