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Old 04-05-2014, 02:50 PM   #1
rmcspeterson
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Electrical Fire -- Warning to Keystone Owners

We own a 2013 Keystone Cougar 5th wheel model 331MKS. It is 11 moths old. Yesterday my wife and I left for a 3 day weekend camping by the Pacific Ocean in Washington State (about 2 1/2 hours from our home). When we got to the campground, we started setting up. The rig was only on 12V battery power. I had not yet connected to shore power. When I pushed the button to lower the landing gear, nothing happened. I tried the remote control, and nothing happened again. Thinking that the battery may have discharged, I went to get the power cord intending to plug it in. The cord was in the storage area in the front, under the hitch, where the battery is. When I opened the door, immediately SMOKE was billowing out. Then I saw the FLAME. It was coming from the circuit board above the battery.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I immediately got the fire extinguisher. After using it several times, the flame kept coming back. I called 911 for the fire department. While on the phone with 911, they asked about propane on board. The propane tanks are right next to the area burning. I immediately removed both of them. All I could think of was the possibility of an explosion. The dispatcher asked if there was anything else nearby that could burn. I said "yes, it is connected to my truck which is full of diesel." I could imagine everything going up in smoke. I turned off the battery, turned off all the circuit breakers, but the flame kept coming back after I kept using the fire extinguisher.

My wife went for the campground ranger. I finally emptied the fire extinguisher and the flame came back. I had nothing else to try, so I reached in and pulled the wires out which were all melted at and around the circuit board. The fire finally went out. By the time the fire department came, it was out.

The camp ranger told us that he had never seen anything like this before since it was not plugged into 110. Since the trip was ruined and since the warranty is good for a few more weeks, I drove the rig to the dealer (about 2 1/2 hours away). I called them in advance. Initially they sounded like they didn't believe me.

When I got to the dealership, 3 men came out to look. They said that they couldn't believe what they saw and that they had never seen this happen before. They took pictures. Our 5th wheel is now at the dealer. They said they will be talking to Keystone on Monday to see what next steps there are.

I am sharing all this:

1. To alert fellow 5th wheelers about this, particularly anyone with a 2013 Keystone Cougar 331MKS. This could have resulted in serious injury or even death. What would have happened if this fire started in the night? The bedroom is directly above the compartment that was burning. We could have been killed.

2. The dealer said this is the first time they have ever seen this. Maybe that is true (particularly for that particular dealership), but perhaps this is a bigger or pervasive problem. The staff at the dealership said that the circuit breaker or fuses between the battery and the circuit panel that burned had not done anything. Clearly that is a huge problem if the safety devices do not work when they should.

3. I think it is important that fellow RVer's inform others of such hazards. Perhaps Good Sam Club or other agency tracks this kind of serious problem. I did lodge a concern with Consumer Reports already. I don't know if there is a state or federal agency that should also be notified.

4. I don't know what the resolution with Keystone and the dealership will be at this time. Perhaps there is some type of advocacy that is available to help us.

BOTTOM LINE: If this can happen to us, it could happen to anyone. We were fortunate that no one was hurt or worse. But, maybe the next family will not be so lucky.

I appreciate this opportunity to share this scary and worrisome situation with all of you.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:06 PM   #2
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Thank you for sharing your unfortunate experience with our members. Since this is most likely a "first" - at least here on this forum - there probably isn't a lot of advice or help that we can offer. We can, however, all be thankful that this incident didn't escalate into a more serious one and more importantly, no one suffered any injury.

It seems that, so far, you have alerted all those that need to be. You mentioned Good Sam but unless you informed them about what happened, they would have no way of knowing. They might be very interested in your story.

I am wondering if you will have any way of knowing the cause of the fire. Will there be any investigation by the fire department that attended? Unless the cause is determined, taking steps to prevent this from happening in our units will be difficult.

I am also a bit puzzled with what went on with regards to the propane tanks. Did your remove them on your own or did the fire department ask you to or did they tell you to get away from or out of the area because of the danger of them exploding? If the fire department told me to remove the tanks, I am not sure if I would do that if flames were shooting out of the storage/battery compartment which is very close to those tanks.

I know there are members here who are fire fighters. What would your advice be to us if we found ourselves in a similar situation?

Keep us informed of your situation and I'm glad to hear that you and your wife weren't hurt. I would think that your insurance and Keystone would take care of the RV.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:15 PM   #3
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Thanks for your note

I removed the propane tanks myself. The flame was still small and I was using my extinguisher. I would not have gone near the tanks if the flame had spread there.

The dealer tells me that on Monday they will be in touch with Keystone about this. They have the rig at the moment. Obviously we want answers too before we take it back and certainly before using it again. I will keep everyone posted.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:57 PM   #4
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I'm curious if your trailer has the touch power panel or standard breakers, and if it's a touch panel, was the burning circuit board some kind of monitoring system for that panel. Problems with the touch panel have become legendary, but this is the first I've heard on this forum about a fire. Let us know what you find out.

As for item number two, circuit breakers and fuses are protection devices against high current. They are not affected by ambient heat unless the heat melts the jacketing on the wiring and the correct wire(s) happen to short against something. That's why removing power from an electrical fire is the first thing you normally do.
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Old 04-05-2014, 07:48 PM   #5
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got any pictures?
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Old 04-05-2014, 08:16 PM   #6
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Sorry about your situation. Glad you were not injured. I hope that Keystone makes it right.

Just thinking out loud, so to speak. I think this might be a situation where a master cutoff switch would have helped. It sounds like an electrical fire that was maybe started by a short of some sort. That short, until electricity was disconnected, would continue until the battery was discharged which could be why the fire kept returning? You stated you turned off the battery. Was that a master switch?

Please keep us posted and as said above, pictures would be interesting if you have any.
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Old 04-06-2014, 02:32 AM   #7
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You said the flames were coming from a circuit board above the batteries. Was that the LCI controller? Also, although there are fuses for electric, those are after the batteries and for different circuits to devices. I'm pretty certain the LCI controller (along with carbon monoxide det. & a few other things) don't have fuses. There's been several instances reported over the years of those who've had shorts either at the batteries or somewhere not fused and had wiring overheat, etc. Very rare, but it can happen. Sounds like the power cable from your batteries to the LCI controller somehow shorted directly to ground at the controller. Guess your dealer will let you know.

As an aside, one of the things I just finished doing on our Montana was to add an air conditioner fused disconnect box, using one of the two fuses for the positive from our battery bank. The other will be used when I take the next bigger steps in adding some solar panels & charge controller. These are quite inexpensive (just be sure to use a 60 amp version) and available at any big box hardware store, along with 4 ga. wire and terminals.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:49 PM   #8
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As I have the same trailer, I can tell you it is the remote wiring station and transmitter/receiver for the remote control. This is a 12v system so the breakers will not have an effect on it nor will the conventional battery cut off switch in the water compartment in the basement. This is because there are items that will still work (jacks, front light) when this switch is turned off. For that reason I have a switch that turns everything off at the battery. But this is a first for me about this happening. I wish you best of luck and hope that you find out what happened. Stay on the dealer and have him tell you before they replace it, as I'm sure Keystone will do this if you are within your warranty period.
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:44 PM   #9
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I have a 2013 318 SAB and the same circuit board "fried" on mine right after we got it home from the dealership. I found one of the electronic components on the board had swollen or expanded to nearly twice its size rendering the landing gear circuitry on the board useless.

We were fortunate that ours did not flame up when it gave out. The circuit that failed on the board controlled the landing gear. It was quite evident that there had been significant heat in the area of the swollen component. (Forgive me I am electronically impaired and only know that a vacuum tube looks slightly different than a transistor so I don;t know how to describe the element)The dealer walked me through a "work around", rewiring and bypassing that part of the board to use the landing gear with electric motors until the new board arrived. The old board was shipped back to the dealer and I suppose ultimately Keystone.

Needless to say it was very disconcerting on a new rig. It seems something may be amiss with these boards and I hope they can figure it all out and reduce any risk as seen here.
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Old 04-07-2014, 03:31 PM   #10
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We have a 2013 29RES. Now I have to go out and check mine! 2 years and no problems...so far...
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Old 04-07-2014, 05:54 PM   #11
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I have to play Devils Advocate here, as so far one board has started a fire in it's component and another shorted out without fire. And there may be others, but so far not here on this forum, that I'm aware of. That is one (that has caught fire) out of how many hundred thousands of trailers. This board is also used in other makes as well. Please, I'm not saying this will never happen again, I'm just saying until we find out more it is a bit early to say, "It seems something may be amiss with these boards"
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:57 PM   #12
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Question about the incident

Had you been using the RV all season long, or just had it out for the first time?

We had just taken ours out for the first time this week, and was wondering if it was something that might have been mouse 'attacked' over the winter, where mice may have chewed through the wiring?
In our case, mice got the wires on our AC, along with the wires on the tractor. I'm now the 'Mouse Monster'! and have used lots of little green cubes around the AC and in the storage shed, and the wires on my RV are a concern of course.
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Old 04-09-2014, 03:05 AM   #13
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Wow, thanks for sharing. I am glad nobody got hurt. I am going to go over that circut board Monday when i pick my 333mks up to see if there is any evidence of an issue. Bet the smell was nasty.
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Old 04-09-2014, 05:18 PM   #14
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Follow Up

We used the 5th wheel a lot last season and had it out 2 weekends ago. We haven't had any problems. Having said that, last year we had to have the control panel in the rig replaced twice. I don't know if there is a connection to this problem. I'm just saying.

One of the people who responded to this post questioned my use of the word "advocacy" thinking that I meant "sue". That is not the case. As a newbie to the forum, I was simply trying to ascertain whether or not there was a forum to support our efforts if Keystone stonewalls. I am not the suing type.

I called the dealer yesterday and they said they had made initial contact with Keystone and sent photos. I will keep this group posted once a cause is determined an outcome decision is made.
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Old 04-12-2014, 02:36 PM   #15
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Having the same problem

Brutal.....thank God no one was hurt.
There is no such thing as perfect in the electronics manufacturing industry.
Parts will fail......that is an inevitability. How badly they fail and how frequently is always the guessing game.
Begs to question where are these panels being built and where are the components coming from?
Why am I saying this?
I am having the same problem (apparently but not yet confirmed by dealer) with the LCI board.
The issue: Went to pull the trailer home yesterday after being in storage for the winter.
Placed batteries (2 - 6V) in compartment as usual.....hooked up wires as usual (black to pos - white to neg)....pressed the landing gear button up and motor worked......pressed down and nothing.
Thought battery connections were loose......pulled positive wire off.....made sure connection was clean.....put back on and tightened.....pushed landing gear button (can't remember if up or down) and motor worked......pressed down and nothing.
At this point I thought the batteries may be weak so I swapped them out with another set that were freshly charged. Followed the same routine for installation as above but this time when I pushed the landing gear button.....nothing!
THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN...I could smell the faint smell of plastic when it gets hot.
Pulled battery connections off immediately thinking I may have crossed the wires but they had been installed correctly and cautiously hooked them back up again. No more smell...thank goodness.
Thinking that the landing gear motor may be burnt out I went to check to see if I had slide function at the touch panel....nope.....awning....nope.
I can clearly hear a "click" when touched like it wants to engage at the panel but I get nothing.
Everything else works like lights, water pump..etc but not the landing gear, awning or slides.
Pulled all 15amp fuses at main panel to check....2 blown...replaced them.
Pulled panel out completely because in behind is were they hide the converter and the 2 35amp fuses were blown....replace them.
Thinking I had 'er licked.....went back to the front and pressed landing gear button...nothing. Went back inside and tried awning...nothing but a click...slides...nothing but a click.
Checked every fuse I could find in the rig but nothing worked.
Did some wire tracing and wound up at the LCI board. Noticed one of the white square (diode...resister...relay...have no idea what it is) is discolored and puffed out slightly.
That's it...I'm done... it's off to the dealership.
They try to trace the issue in the parking lot (because they are very busy but are very nice) and figure it is the LCI board.
I am still waiting to hear from the service department to see if Keystone will allow the warranty work to replace the board so they can order one. I have 2 months still on factory warranty (plus extended) so it better not be an issue!
Sorry to be sooooo long winded but it a story that needed to be told and was wondering if anybody else has experienced this problem.
I will keep you up to date as far as the fix is concerned.
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Old 04-13-2014, 04:10 AM   #16
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Probably wouldn't hurt to at least register the issue with the NHSTA.
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Old 04-13-2014, 04:56 AM   #17
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board

I think I`m going to buy a bigger fire extinguisher
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:43 PM   #18
americanrascal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingSlinger View Post
... Checked every fuse I could find in the rig but nothing worked.
Did some wire tracing and wound up at the LCI board. Noticed one of the white square (diode...resister...relay...have no idea what it is) is discolored and puffed out slightly.
That's it...I'm done... it's off to the dealership.
They try to trace the issue in the parking lot (because they are very busy but are very nice) and figure it is the LCI board.
I am still waiting to hear from the service department to see if Keystone will .
That's pretty much exactly what I found on mine (as stated earlier in the thread).

There is an easy temp "work around" if the dealer can walk you through it. Only involves disconnecting 2 terminals and reattaching them to a set of adjacent terminals but please don't try it without qualified guidance. I definitely am not qualified to talk about electronic gizmos, but it sure sounds like this is tied to one circuit on this board that controls the landing gear.

My dealer is about 500 miles away but he immediately understood what I was talking about when I told him the symptoms and he sounded familiar with this type of problem. The dealer walked me through an easy temp rewiring (which I dare not try to explain here as its 8 months old in my mind). The result allowed me to use the exterior bulkhead switch but not the remote. That kept me from having to use the hand crank for the gear and allowed the rest of the board to work until a new board came in. The rest of the circuits worked fine.

Once the new board arrived from the dealer and Keystone, it was an easy replacement of about 10 minutes just copying and following the wiring from the old to the new board. Fired right up, all worked well with the new install and sent the old board back. 8 Months with the new board an no problems.

Keystone, Lippert and the dealer were all very responsive and I appreciated their attention and response. All that said I do kinda sleep with one eye open on that circuit board. I hope they have any possible bugs worked out in this new board.
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:49 PM   #19
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A bit more clarification

Mine was only limited to the landing gear, so i wonder if the 30 amp in line fuse might be out on yours? I changed my in line fuse and the slides, awnings etc all worked but not the landing gear.???????
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Old 04-14-2014, 03:01 AM   #20
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VERY interesting. I've never heard of an LCI board having a defective component before. The only DC fires or problems) have been from a direct short with a feed cable to ground. Both of you have newer units though. Wonder if this is one of those 'cheapest components you can find anywhere in the world' issues.
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