Using Airbags

[bsmith0404]

We've been out on a 2,000 mile round trip camping adventure this week and it amazes me how many trucks I see running airbags with their 5ers. I don't use them, don't have a need to and I don't really have a problem with anyone who does. The problem I have is with so many rigs I see going down the road, with airbags obviously inflated to keep the TV level or at original ride height and the 5er is nose high. Many look like they don't have enough bed clearance to drop the front. Come on guys, a little squat is ok, that's what the overload springs are for. Let some of the air out, let the backend drop a little and get your rigs as close to level as you can. It's okay to let the truck squat, really!

[xrated]

Just curious, what would you say is an acceptable amount of squat on a 2016 F350 CC Dually like mine? I have a tow behind and not a 5ver.

[bsmith0404]

In my opinion, let it use the overload springs that's what they're designed to do. The newer trucks run softer/fewer springs so they have a softer ride when empty. The overloads kick in when weight is added. They are designed to squat and hit the overloads. If you don't bottom out then your suspension is working as designed.

[Desert185]

Agreed.

In my case the rear sits higher than the front when empty. When loaded, a slight squat is noticeable. However, when I tried Timbrens the truck tows level. I'm thinking some squat is acceptable, but I have also seen what appears to be an overload, even with a 350/3500. At least with airbags the squat angle can be adjusted. My Timbrens worked out really well for our situation, though.

[MattHelm21]

Agreed. I would say my F450 squats 2 inches when I drop the 3800 lbs pin on it. Unhitched, the suspension is off the overload providing a better ride quality. I always figured air springs would impair this(also adds weight). I also see no reason to lift the truck off the overloads unless the manufacturer designed the suspension geometry with this in mind like the Dodge trucks with the factory air suspension. I adjusted the hitch/pin so the trailer sits level with the truck's squat. It may not be pretty but the truck was designed to work this way.

[chuckster57]

I put bags on my '94 because my old fiver had a pin weight that would put the suspension just off the overloads. Hit a bump and you would bounce for a while. Bags kept it OFF the overloads. Old fiver was north of 2200 pin, current is 1295 empty so probably about 1500. I do keep about 30 PSI in the bags to keep it off the overloads.

[Dave W]

I'm not about to run my truck on the overloads - as that name implies that you ARE overloaded and are restricting your suspension's capability to control bounce and rebound. I also don't want my headlights in the trees searching out owls either with the suspension on the overloads. I want my truck and 5th wheel as level as possible and if it requires a set of air bags or an add-a-leaf, that's where I'll be. Then there is the fact that not all 3/4 ton and up trucks have an overload spring leaf or even a sway bar - then what happens? On my truck, 20-30 pounds in the bags , depending on the truck bed load, works just fine. Next, running on an overload leaf does wonder for the front suspension, in particular the caster and to some amount, camber effect and steering which may contribute to tire wear. Then there are the long haul tractor trailer combos - and virtually all now run air or air over leaf suspension. It works and is easily adjustable for pin load for leveling.

If you want your pickup truck on the overload leafs and listen to them clatter or squeak on bumps, so be it - not my way for an enjoyable tow.

[bsmith0404]

Actually, the suspension is designed to ride on those springs when load is applied. In old school trucks the manufacturers just built a big stack of leaf springs to handle the max payload and that's what you drove on all the time loaded or empty, many times leaving every filling in your mouth laying on the floorboards as they rattled out along the way. The new suspensions are designed for a soft ride when empty and more springs are engaged as weight is added to the vehicle. Using airbags to keep the truck from engaging the helper springs as they are actually called is defeating the purpose and design of the suspension system. As for tractor trailers, that's a big difference. Can you imagine the spring stack that would be required to support the pin weight they have? And to be honest with you, I've never heard my springs making any noise as I drive down the road with the helper springs engaged, you may want to check the suspension on that Ford if yours makes that much noise, sounds like other issues to me.

Finally, 2" of squat isn't putting my headlights in the trees or messing with my alignment, still getting a nice wear pattern on all 6 tires.

[Frank G]

Wow, happy fathers day ya all, grab an adult beverage, relax and chill out.

[Rick52]

I agree with Dave for a couple of reasons. Although the overload springs are there to help in and "overload" situation, driving down the road at 60 miles per hour and having to brake hard can cause a big issue. Because the truck is already slightly down in the rear the trailer is going to push hard forcing it down even more causing the front wheels to rise and you quickly lose the best possible steering control. Second, I like going down the road level looking like a well setup towing combination. I have a B&W companion slider hitch in use with my B&W turnball hitch. B&W is a beautiful hitch and gives you many combinations so you can get your trailer level with your truck bed in any given situation. I also installed the firestone 5000 airbags. When I see a truck and rv going down the road with significant sag, it just looks sloppy, IMHO. With all the great equipment available, why not. BTW, I have a 2016 Lariet F-250 fx4 diesel.

[kennyskywalker]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

We've been out on a 2,000 mile round trip camping adventure this week and it amazes me how many trucks I see running airbags with their 5ers. I don't use them, don't have a need to and I don't really have a problem with anyone who does. The problem I have is with so many rigs I see going down the road, with airbags obviously inflated to keep the TV level or at original ride height and the 5er is nose high. Many look like they don't have enough bed clearance to drop the front. Come on guys, a little squat is ok, that's what the overload springs are for. Let some of the air out, let the backend drop a little and get your rigs as close to level as you can. It's okay to let the truck squat, really!

Depending on 5ver weight they truly make a difference, I'm speaking from experience. Without bags hit a dip in the road the tires roll side to side more (unstable). Airbags correct all of that, you seriously will think you are not pulling anything. Now I'm talking about real max weights, if I were pulling 7 or 8k I probably would not have bags, but max weights require enhancements.

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[kfxgreenie]

I must comment on this one, I've been keeping my keyboard too quiet way to long. Xrated has recently posted how he had a stability issue with his TT TH obviously due to a light tongue and could not put any more weight on his tongue as he would be over GVWR on a 250/2500. He had a "stability" issue and yet had added bags and an auxiliary fuel tank to the truck. He ran the tongue light just so he would be "legal" as he had no other "choice". Did the bags and tank (even empty) not take away from payload (tongue weight)? This forum praised him for being "legal" and putting others at risk by having a "legal" rig. Did he need bags, the tank? On a 250 2500 at 10K PROBABLY not. yet it was the "3/4 Ton" that was the problem. After he got a 1 Ton Dually and put THE PROPER TONGUE WEIGHT on the truck for the GCWR everything was solved and he was welcomed to the "CLUB." Now I have no doubt that the stability and towing experience is better with the larger 3500 (DRW), but come on call a spade a spade. Load your rig properly, and let these new trucks do what they are built to do!
opc orn:: popcorn: Now i will go back into my hole.

[ctbruce]

Originally Posted by kfxgreenie

I must comment on this one, I've been keeping my keyboard too quiet way to long. Xrated has recently posted how he had a stability issue with his TT TH obviously due to a light tongue and could not put any more weight on his tongue as he would be over GVWR on a 250/2500. He had a "stability" issue and yet had added bags and an auxiliary fuel tank to the truck. He ran the tongue light just so he would be "legal" as he had no other "choice". Did the bags and tank (even empty) not take away from payload (tongue weight)? This forum praised him for being "legal" and putting others at risk by having a "legal" rig. Did he need bags, the tank? On a 250 2500 at 10K PROBABLY not. yet it was the "3/4 Ton" that was the problem. After he got a 1 Ton Dually and put THE PROPER TONGUE WEIGHT on the truck for the GCWR everything was solved and he was welcomed to the "CLUB." Now I have no doubt that the stability and towing experience is better with the larger 3500 (DRW), but come on call a spade a spade. Load your rig properly, and let these new trucks do what they are built to do!

And in that thread he answered these questions about the loading. Since he may not see this in this thread its not very fair to call out a member and not give him/her a chance to defend himself. What I really wish is that when there is an issue about weight we could all get together on site and determine what the best course of action should be, take a vote and make it binding on everyone. But since that is not the case and since we are not there, we should not make assumptions about the situations we may only have part of the story to. Just a thought.

[bsmith0404]

Dang now I feel stupid, I was thinking the braking action of the trailer pulling back (I have my trailer brakes set heavier than the truck) would cause a lifting action on the back of the truck as it pulls back. I don't know if air bags would make things better, worse, or have no effect in an emergency braking situation. I only know how suspension systems are designed to work and that there is no need to use air bags to make the truck level, defeating the design of the suspension, and needlessly causing a nose high situation when towing.

Also, I initially made the same mistake many people do by referring to the helper springs as they are commonly known as overload springs. They are accurately called helper and when they engage they help carry the load. To say that you are overloaded by engaging them is not an accurate statement. If you were overloaded when they engage, adding air bags doesn't magically make you not overloaded.

[MattHelm21]

I was thinking the braking action of the trailer pulling back

I "think" the trailer always pushes the truck to a degree under braking. I haven't thought about it much with the factory brake controller I have now but I assume these are still inertial and depend on the deceleration of the truck first in order to apply the trailer brakes. On top of that with the transmission grade braking and engine brake, the trailer is going to be pushing on the truck under deceleration.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by kfxgreenie

I must comment on this one, I've been keeping my keyboard too quiet way to long. Xrated has recently posted how he had a stability issue with his TT TH obviously due to a light tongue and could not put any more weight on his tongue as he would be over GVWR on a 250/2500. He had a "stability" issue and yet had added bags and an auxiliary fuel tank to the truck. He ran the tongue light just so he would be "legal" as he had no other "choice". Did the bags and tank (even empty) not take away from payload (tongue weight)? This forum praised him for being "legal" and putting others at risk by having a "legal" rig. Did he need bags, the tank? On a 250 2500 at 10K PROBABLY not. yet it was the "3/4 Ton" that was the problem. After he got a 1 Ton Dually and put THE PROPER TONGUE WEIGHT on the truck for the GCWR everything was solved and he was welcomed to the "CLUB." Now I have no doubt that the stability and towing experience is better with the larger 3500 (DRW), but come on call a spade a spade. Load your rig properly, and let these new trucks do what they are built to do!
opc orn:: popcorn: Now i will go back into my hole.

Thank you for that post....it just confirms my thoughts that you truly don't have a clue what you are talking about in regard to my trailer/loading/stability issues. And if I still had the F250, I would love to invite you to my place and give YOU the golden opportunity to load my trailer correctly, stay within the weight limits of the truck, and more importantly, make the sway issue that I had go away. Then, you could make a post about how you saved the day for me, solved the problems I had, and saved me $$$$ by not having to buy a different truck. Damn the bad luck!

And BTW, letting these new truck's do what they were built to do, DOESN'T include overloading them, as you seem to be suggesting. And as far as adding the aux. tank, I believe I'll be the one that decides whether or not I want/need it. Again, thanks for your response, it has confirmed for me that you just can't always believe everything you read on the interwebs.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by kennyskywalker

Depending on 5ver weight they truly make a difference, I'm speaking from experience. Without bags hit a dip in the road the tires roll side to side more (unstable). Airbags correct all of that, you seriously will think you are not pulling anything. Now I'm talking about real max weights, if I were pulling 7 or 8k I probably would not have bags, but max weights require enhancements.

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I would like to know how air bags stop tire roll. Good quality shocks would do better at controlling bounce, but even that would not affect tire roll.

I am a member of the don't need bags club!

[kennyskywalker]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

I would like to know how air bags stop tire roll. Good quality shocks would do better at controlling bounce, but even that would not affect tire roll.

I am a member of the don't need bags club!

I've hit some pretty big dips in the road with significant 5ver weight, without vs. with airbags make big difference

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[Tom N OH]

I'll keep my air bags, thank you very much. And you may /think/ your headlights aren't shining for raccoons, but I'd be willing to bet every other person on the road with you at night has a different opinion.

[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by Tom N OH

I'll keep my air bags, thank you very much. And you may /think/ your headlights aren't shining for raccoons, but I'd be willing to bet every other person on the road with you at night has a different opinion.

Think about it this way, when the back end drops the pivot point is basically the front axle. The frame is like a long lever moving on that pivot point. The rear of the truck is approximately 18' away from the pivot point. The further away from the pivot point, the greater the amount of movement. So 18' away moves 2", as you move closer the amount of movement is reduced until you get to the actual pivot point which would have zero movement. I understand that theory is using a fixed pivot point and our trucks have suspension that allows movement at the pivot point, but it is still less than the amount of movement 18' away.

If you have ever hooked up a WDH, part of that process is to measure the height of the front and rear unloaded and then loaded. You then adjust the WDH bars to get the front back as close as you can to original height. The last one I hooked up, the back dropped 2.5", the front raised 3/4".

My point is that the headlights are not moving as high as many people think they do just because the back is squatting a bit. I have driven at night many times and I still have a very good light pattern on the pavement in front of me, not on the highline wires.