Buyer Beware

[CWtheMan]

Let’s look at a lower end Keystone fiver. I chose the Hideout and you’ll soon see why.

This one is fine and dandy - tire wise.

Hideout 276RLS

Shipping weight: 7745#
CCC: 2555#
Published Hitch: 1440#

GVWR = 10300#
GAWR 2 ea = 4450# ea (minimum value)

Tires = ST225/75R15D
Load capacity = 2540# @ 65 PSI

For all of these Hideout models, Keystone is going to use the same size & load capacity tires as OEM. They have done it this way for years and the tires meet the minimal safety standards NHSTA allows in the FMVSS (standards). Here is the one that should be on every prospective buyers PDI list.

Hideout 315RDTS

Shipping weight: 9920#
CCC: 2245#
Published Hitch: 1805#

GVWR = 11965#
GAWR = 2 ea 5080# ea (maximum value)

Tires = ST225/75R15D
Load Capacity = 2540# @ 65 PSI

On this particular trailer, Keystone must set the GAWRs at 5080# ea. Anything higher and the OEM tires would not be legal for them to fit as Original Equipment.

Keystone has made numerous mistakes when certifying trailers with 7000# axles and the recall record for those erroneous actions are on record in NHTSAs data base for all to see.

[mtofell]

I'm not totally clear on what you are pointing out. Are you taking into account the roughly 20% of the trailer's weight that rides on the pin.... therefore, not on the tires?

[bsmith0404]

I'm sure CW is taking all of that into account. In fact if you do the math and the trailer was maxed on cargo, assuming the pin weight stayed the same (I know it won't be, but for discussion purposes) the weight on wheels will be exactly what the tires max load rating equals. No room for variance in load between tires and no room for tire degradation over time. Basically, they put the bare minimum allowed to be legal and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I'm sure CW is taking all of that into account. In fact if you do the math and the trailer was maxed on cargo, assuming the pin weight stayed the same (I know it won't be, but for discussion purposes) the weight on wheels will be exactly what the tires max load rating equals. No room for variance in load between tires and no room for tire degradation over time. Basically, they put the bare minimum allowed to be legal and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

You got it.....

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I'm sure CW is taking all of that into account. In fact if you do the math and the trailer was maxed on cargo, assuming the pin weight stayed the same (I know it won't be, but for discussion purposes) the weight on wheels will be exactly what the tires max load rating equals. No room for variance in load between tires and no room for tire degradation over time. Basically, they put the bare minimum allowed to be legal and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

CW has nothing to do with it. Keystone is covering up their mistake. I would buy tires that are correct and have my lawyer send a letter requesting a new sticker corrected with proper tires. A sticker is cheaper than putting new tires on all those units and cheaper than going to court for one buyer. I'd do it just for fun to see what they would do.
After so many of the same screw up a class action asking for tires instead of a sticker may work. The disclaimer about changes may not hold up after seeing so many. At this time it is either negligence or on purpose. On purpose means is false advertising.


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[captcolour]

Going through this myself and having to buy new tires and wheels for a brand new RV, you would think there is a class action suit somewhere in all of this. There is so much info on the web and across manufacturers that it appears they are being negligent on providing consumers safe OEM tires.

[Dave W]

I hate to say it - but what's new? This is a known shortcoming on almost every brand unless you special order or have a custom build. My quote for Goodyear G614's on a trailer in 2014 was a $1500 premium if I ordered a new 5er and at 2 different dealerships. Budget tires whan you buy and sell the take offs. I sold mine with 5K miles for $225 to a farmer who was happy to get them

[mtofell]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

No room for variance in load between tires and no room for tire degradation over time. Basically, they put the bare minimum allowed to be legal and it's a disaster waiting to happen.

I still don't see what is "wrong". I get it that the GVWR of the trailer tops out right where the tires do. Does that make it wrong? I've never really thought about the equal loading thing on all 4 tires with the max weight and that's a good point. You can rest assured there is a big margin of safety built into tire ratings, likely with uneven loading and other things in mind. If every tire exploded when 1# over it's weight there would be a lot of broken down RVs sitting beside the freeway

I completely agree running everything at its max is not a good way to run an RV... or anything for that matter.

This reminds me of the residential building code. I can't remember if this is in the actual code book or was just a teaching point in a class I took once, but it goes something like this: The code is the bare minimum you can design/built a house to. It's also the maximum you'll ever be required to build to. Some guys in class just couldn't wrap their heads around this concept.

[CWtheMan]

Every manufacturer of RV trailers MUST comply with the safety regulations and standards provided to them by the DOT. The regulations are written to minimal requirements. Sometimes the minimal requirements will also have some wiggle room. For tire fitments that wiggle room is known as “load capacity reserves”.

Lets look at some of the figures I provided for the Hideout 2017 model 315DRTS.

The shipping weight includes all equipment provided and attached to or onboard the trailer as it leaves the factory. In actuality, it’s a ballpark figure in the brochures because it may have options not necessarily listed in the brochures but listed on the CCC label. For this math test it is as reported (9920#).

The cargo capacity is added to the shipping weight to determine the trailer’s GVWR (9920 + 2245 = 11965 = GVWR.

The published hitch weight is subtracted from the GVWR to determine the total GAWR. 11965 - 1805 = 10160 for total GAWR. It is divided by the number of axles which will be the GAWR for each axle (5080#). There is no requirement in the regulations for trailer tires to provide load capacity reserves above the GAWR value so in this case the Original Equipment tires (ST225/75R15D) have a maximum load capacity of 2540# x 2 = 5080# per axle. Remember, all onboard water is cargo. Also remember, a battery provided by the vehicle manufacturer is part of the shipping weight. If provided by the dealer and under 100# it will not be deducted from the CCC label. The owner will have to make note of it. If the dealer adds something else and the combined total is over 100# they will have to change the CCC label before the papers are signed.

[JRTJH]

Now, "to add insult to injury" to what CW just posted, all ST tires (and most other tires as well) experience degradation with age. I don't have specific numbers, but many reports, even some from tire manufacturers indicate about 10% load capacity degradation each year.

So, in the example of the Hideout that CW used, the tires, when new were "at the load limit" with no reserve capacity. Should this trailer sit on a dealer's lot for a year before sale, it's conceivable that the tires would be 10% overloaded at GVW the first time the new owner towed it to a campground.

[busterbrown]

This post is very interesting (and informative) as "most" prospective buyers have no clue what defines 'reserve capacity'. I didn't when I purchased a 35' ultra light TT last year.

OEM Trailer King tires were 205 75 14, LRC, 1760 lbs at 50 PSI.

Bullet 308BHS spec'd out with GVWR at 7600 lbs, Dry weight at 6210, and Tongue weight at 700 lbs. A little math shows me that I had very little (if any) reserve capacity left if I pulled a completely loaded trailer at 7600 lbs. 12% of 7600 is 912 lbs of trailer tongue weight. 7600 - 912 = 6688 lbs carried by 4 tires. At 1672 lbs on each tire, I was darn close to the max capacity of each tire when brand new. 88 lbs of reserve (5%) for each tire is slim margins.

A couple of things to comment on with my trailer. During the walkthrough, I checked tire pressures with my own tire pressure gauge. 3 out of 4 tires were inflated to approx. 44-45 PSI. The 4th was at 48 PSI. I remember this distinctively as I ask twice to have them inflated to MAX PSI, this after the tech told me they were "checked".

Second observation is the fitment of my trailer's OEM tire onto Bullets that have significantly lighter GVWRs. One in particular, a 220RBI. GVWR is 6400, 12% of that on the tongue is 768 lbs. The weight spred across all 4 tires when trailer is loaded is 1408 lbs. Remember, OEM tires have a load rating of 1760 lbs. 352 lbs is the margin of reserve capacity for that smaller coach, a nice comfortable 20%.

Long story short, my Bullet acquired new shoes 4 months ago, increasing my reserve capacity to 45%, a worthy and "necessary" investment.

[bsmith0404]

As I mentioned earlier, one of the problems with putting tires on with little or no load reserve is the assumption of equal loading. When was the last time anyone weighed each tire individually? We don't because it's pretty much impossible without a set of mobile scales. When was the last time anyone weighed the axles individually? Most of us haven't gone through the hassle to do that either and again, you would need to find a scale sized correctly so you could get each axle on different segments of the scale without having any other weight on them. The manufacturer is installing the minimum tire required to meet requirements. I've seen some statements that say depending on how the trailer is loaded and slide location, the weight difference from wheel to wheel could be as much as 2.000 lbs. I personally think that is a bit extreme and can't see how it could be that drastic with most RVs, but I suppose it's possible. I'll look a my 5er as an example. In the drivers side I have 3 slides which includes the bedroom, kitchen, and living room with a sleep sofa. The driver side also has the hot water heater, bathroom, all of the kitchen cabinets, and both propane bottles. The passenger has the dining room slide which includes a free standing dinette and two recliners. I would be a fool to think there isn't a significant difference of weight between the 2 sides. That means the tires on the drivers side are carrying more than 25% of the weight on wheels each. Are they carrying an extra 200 lbs, 500 lbs, 1,000 lbs each? I don't know, but I'm going to have tires with excessive reserve to make sure they are sufficient to account for the difference even if Keystone doesn't think it's necessary to do it with the OE setup.

[CWtheMan]

The RV trailer manufacturer’s specs are most easily described as flexible. They are target figures. However, they must be workable because they may actually fit the finished product.

Vehicle certification is a serious safety action initiated by the DOT that must be complied with by all vehicle manufacturers. The labels on your trailers are supported by documentations sent to NHTSA with the identical information. Violations may cause vehicle recalls. Some manufacturers will incur stiff monitory penalties for providing false information on the vehicle labeling.

Authorized changes in vehicle labeling are allowed before a vehicle’s first sale. After that it’s a violation to change anything on the labeling. Of course there are exceptions but they normally involve the addition of an authorized auxiliary label.

That “first sale” action is a transfer of authority. The new owner is then responsible for all weight and balance conditions of the trailer. The new owner has all the figures. Everything needed to properly maintain the trailer is in the owner’s manual, on the certification label, cargo label and tire placard.

A side note: Original Equipment tires fitted/installed on motor vehicles such as your car, pick-up truck, SUV etc. MUST have a percentage of load capacity reserves. Even though the same numbered regulation is used for those and RV trailer tires the load capacity reserves are not required with the RV trailer tire fitments/installations.

Load capacity reserves are not an unknown value built into the tire. They are provided by manipulating the tire’s inflation pressures to provide the desired recommended load capacity. The TRA approves the use of tire inflation charts/tables for that sort of action. Even though each tire manufacturer may provide their own tire charts/tables they all provide standardized values in increments of 5 PSI.

[Hoojs12840]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

As I mentioned earlier, one of the problems with putting tires on with little or no load reserve is the assumption of equal loading. When was the last time anyone weighed each tire individually? We don't because it's pretty much impossible without a set of mobile scales. When was the last time anyone weighed the axles individually? Most of us haven't gone through the hassle to do that either and again, you would need to find a scale sized correctly so you could get each axle on different segments of the scale without having any other weight on them. The manufacturer is installing the minimum tire required to meet requirements. I've seen some statements that say depending on how the trailer is loaded and slide location, the weight difference from wheel to wheel could be as much as 2.000 lbs. I personally think that is a bit extreme and can't see how it could be that drastic with most RVs, but I suppose it's possible. I'll look a my 5er as an example. In the drivers side I have 3 slides which includes the bedroom, kitchen, and living room with a sleep sofa. The driver side also has the hot water heater, bathroom, all of the kitchen cabinets, and both propane bottles. The passenger has the dining room slide which includes a free standing dinette and two recliners. I would be a fool to think there isn't a significant difference of weight between the 2 sides. That means the tires on the drivers side are carrying more than 25% of the weight on wheels each. Are they carrying an extra 200 lbs, 500 lbs, 1,000 lbs each? I don't know, but I'm going to have tires with excessive reserve to make sure they are sufficient to account for the difference even if Keystone doesn't think it's necessary to do it with the OE setup.

It is possible at a cat scale to weight each tire separately. Weight it it normal once then circle back around and drive one side on yellow paint on the outside side of the scale and pull forward so your front trailer tire is on the "drive" pad and your rear trailer tire is on the "trailer" pad.

Then repeat on the opposite side.

Jason


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[bsmith0404]

Originally Posted by Hoojs12840

It is possible at a cat scale to weight each tire separately. Weight it it normal once then circle back around and drive one side on yellow paint on the outside side of the scale and pull forward so your front trailer tire is on the "drive" pad and your rear trailer tire is on the "trailer" pad.

Then repeat on the opposite side.

Jason


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That's assuming you can get one axle on each pad without the TV tires also being on the pad. I personally have never tried it or thought about it so I don't really remember how the spacing is.

[CWtheMan]

Originally Posted by busterbrown

This post is very interesting (and informative) as "most" prospective buyers have no clue what defines 'reserve capacity'. I didn't when I purchased a 35' ultra light TT last year.

OEM Trailer King tires were 205 75 14, LRC, 1760 lbs at 50 PSI.

Bullet 308BHS spec'd out with GVWR at 7600 lbs, Dry weight at 6210, and Tongue weight at 700 lbs. A little math shows me that I had very little (if any) reserve capacity left if I pulled a completely loaded trailer at 7600 lbs. 12% of 7600 is 912 lbs of trailer tongue weight. 7600 - 912 = 6688 lbs carried by 4 tires. At 1672 lbs on each tire, I was darn close to the max capacity of each tire when brand new. 88 lbs of reserve (5%) for each tire is slim margins. Using your figures the hitch weight - 700# - is subtracted from the GVWR - 7600# and divided by 2 which equals 6900# divided by 2 = 3450# GAWR axles divided by 2 = 1725# minimal tire on each end of the each axle. ON Keystone's computer model those figures will work. Now weight and balance is in your ballpark.

Here is an excerpt from the FMVSS. They contain the standards each RV trailer manufacturer must comply with. Notice the big red letter word.

"These Federal safety standards are regulations written in terms of minimum safety performance requirements for motor vehicles or items of motor vehicle equipment."

When other recommendations are used the parameters will change. The important words for the buyer of a new unit is “at the time of first sale”. At that time the unit must be sold in accordance with its labeling. After that the new owner is 100% responsible for its weight and balance.

The time to challenge is before the papers are signed.

[MattHelm21]

Unfortunately, this is not possible on any Cat Scale(including the one I used today) I've been on. They are now putting huge verticle posts on each side if the ingress and egress to the platforms making this an impossibility. I'm thinking the best bet to try and do this would be to see if there is a quarry in the area which might allow this for a fee.