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Old 11-04-2019, 10:23 AM   #21
wiredgeorge
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
Let me address these separately.

Tankless hot water heater - would be several $k upcharge, use a LOT more propane and water. If you are willing to spend the extra money for it then by all means have one installed.

Split system? Requires a separate air handler and compressor that are connected via refrigeration lines. The install time would be MUCH longer, require a certified HVAC technician and more wires and power. A split system would only work on ac current so it would have to have shore power or a generator to operate. Totally impractical for those reasons much less having long runs of refrigerant lines bagning around taking up space and leaking, and the additional weight and space requirements.
Point of disagreement. First, the on-demand water heater need not cost THOUSANDS of dollars. If you check Amazon, there are lots of them including the Girard that are less than $500; about in the range of a new Suburban or Dometic any dual heating RV hot water heater. I think the less expensive ones are not used as most all are propane only AND most have very very poor quality control.

Second point: It takes no brains to install a mini-split. I put the one in my office in and it was kind of easy. Was in kit form with lines and what not already in the kit. Had to pull a dedicated power line from my box. Problem with a mini-split on a camper is: WHERE TO PUT THE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE assemblies? I don't have much wall space inside but the compressor part would have to be fabbed onto the rear (reinforced) bumper. Bumper pulls sometimes put them up front. It would only make sense if it were a dual zone unit so this would complicate things if not done at the factory so plumbing and wiring could be run through walls. I have seen mini-splits on campers and it just isn't that big a deal and I do agree they are far more effective than my ol' Brisk II on the roof.
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Old 11-04-2019, 11:23 AM   #22
flybouy
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O.K. My bad, for some reason it's apparently quicker to install, more economical to purchase and Keystone elects not to do it. This is proof positive that Keystone is just a bunch of sadist out to make us all miserable.
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:35 PM   #23
JRTJH
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Originally Posted by wiredgeorge View Post
Point of disagreement. First, the on-demand water heater need not cost THOUSANDS of dollars. If you check Amazon, there are lots of them including the Girard that are less than $500; about in the range of a new Suburban or Dometic any dual heating RV hot water heater. I think the less expensive ones are not used as most all are propane only AND most have very very poor quality control.

Second point: It takes no brains to install a mini-split. I put the one in my office in and it was kind of easy. Was in kit form with lines and what not already in the kit. Had to pull a dedicated power line from my box. Problem with a mini-split on a camper is: WHERE TO PUT THE INSIDE AND OUTSIDE assemblies? I don't have much wall space inside but the compressor part would have to be fabbed onto the rear (reinforced) bumper. Bumper pulls sometimes put them up front. It would only make sense if it were a dual zone unit so this would complicate things if not done at the factory so plumbing and wiring could be run through walls. I have seen mini-splits on campers and it just isn't that big a deal and I do agree they are far more effective than my ol' Brisk II on the roof.
There is "virtually no reliability" in Gerard instant water heaters. If you think the failure rate on Suburban or Atwood water heaters is "frustrating to a dry camper whose weekend was just ruined and "KEYSTONE SUCKS because of that problem".... You ain't seen nothing yet, until you start putting Gerard instant heaters in Keystone trailers and the "failure rate of water heaters triples or quadruples" My guess: Keystone would toss the rest of the instant water heaters out the window and you'd never see another one in a Keystone product. They've got enough problems fixing what breaks now without introducing more "crappy, unreliable appliances" to the mix.....

If you put a mini-split system on a travel trailer, "bury" the high pressure line inside the ceiling, run a couple of "zone evaporator units" and hang them on the wall in the bedroom and the main cabin, move to the next station on the assembly line and someone "punches a staple through the HP line".... OK, now IF YOU FIND THE STAPLE before it leaves the plant, do you ignore it, fix it, stop the line or push it out the end unfinished? Maybe just "keep on building it and let the dealership tear the whole roof off to replace a $40 HP line ???? With the "currently used technology, the "worst case scenario" is to pull the rooftop unit, throw it over the side and slap another one in the hole and keep moving the line....

I can't imagine Keystone (or any other "fast and cheap RV manufacturer) changing the appliances that have been working for years with something that's not as reliable, costs more to retool and maintain and isn't "proven in the RV market"...

Will it work in an RV? Yup, maybe even "quite well". Will you see it in the next few years? Don't bet the hair on your chinney chin chin.
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Old 11-04-2019, 06:55 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
There is "virtually no reliability" in Gerard instant water heaters. If you think the failure rate on Suburban or Atwood water heaters is "frustrating to a dry camper whose weekend was just ruined and "KEYSTONE SUCKS because of that problem".... You ain't seen nothing yet, until you start putting Gerard instant heaters in Keystone trailers and the "failure rate of water heaters triples or quadruples" My guess: Keystone would toss the rest of the instant water heaters out the window and you'd never see another one in a Keystone product. They've got enough problems fixing what breaks now without introducing more "crappy, unreliable appliances" to the mix.....

If you put a mini-split system on a travel trailer, "bury" the high pressure line inside the ceiling, run a couple of "zone evaporator units" and hang them on the wall in the bedroom and the main cabin, move to the next station on the assembly line and someone "punches a staple through the HP line".... OK, now IF YOU FIND THE STAPLE before it leaves the plant, do you ignore it, fix it, stop the line or push it out the end unfinished? Maybe just "keep on building it and let the dealership tear the whole roof off to replace a $40 HP line ???? With the "currently used technology, the "worst case scenario" is to pull the rooftop unit, throw it over the side and slap another one in the hole and keep moving the line....

I can't imagine Keystone (or any other "fast and cheap RV manufacturer) changing the appliances that have been working for years with something that's not as reliable, costs more to retool and maintain and isn't "proven in the RV market"...

Will it work in an RV? Yup, maybe even "quite well". Will you see it in the next few years? Don't bet the hair on your chinney chin chin.

John is on point. The previous "wishes and observations" about unrealistic manufacturer mods that need to be made on new units are just that. Those wishes and thoughts are made, apparently, without an understanding of what drives RV sales. The majority are sold to folks that want to be able to go "out there", feel the camping experience, get back to nature etc. without spending much money. I don't know of many that want to spend a fortune on "endless" hot water because they can't control a shower head or some expensive AC mod that only has negative aspects when it comes to a normal RV buyer (which refuses to spend any money for those kinds of things). Nope, I don't want either and I'm pretty spoiled and like things "my way", but, I can also make do with what makes sense. JMO
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by blubuckaroo View Post
You know what John?
If I had heard any of your responses in this forum before we bought our trailer, we probably would have bought new luggage instead.
You have a real dark way of responding to comments.
We've had a good experience so far.
Please don't ruin it for us.
Yup, luggage and a Hilton Honors Card are an alternative for some people who either expect the "impossible" from an RV or who buy one expecting it to be what it's not....

As for "a dark way of responding to comments". IMHO, there are two ways to respond to comments or questions. One is to "blow smoke and make people think they're on a "reality ride" that's not going to have any problems getting to their destination, the other is to be "openly frank" and provide "what I see as the "reality of the RV industry". I prefer to be honest, provide my "unfiltered opinion and advice based on how I go about repairing an RV or correcting an RV issue. I try to explain the "why" about things as well as the "how". Some people only want the "fix mine and I'll be happy" while other people want to try to understand more about what makes their RV work and how it manages to survive a hurricane, a tornado and an earthquake during every tow from home to that ideal camping site 200 miles away (and still function in spite of all the "horror show" it just got dragged through).

What "ruins the experience" for most RV'ers is an unrealistic expectation that they can call the dealer and drop off their trailer on Tuesday, pick it up Thursday and load it on Friday because they have a problem and need it back for camping plans for the weekend. Or, someone makes a comment, "We need a class action suit to make that evil Keystone build better trailers.".... The easy way to answer either is either to say, "Yeah, call the dealer" or "Hey, that's a great idea" and move on. Neither, IMHO, is a realistic answer and if it's "dark" to say, "Hey buddy, you're better off fixing the trailer yourself on Wednesday after work because your dealer won't have it fixed before your weekend trip." Well, again, IMHO, being "dark and honest" is better than "blowing smoke to make someone happy, until Friday morning when their trailer is sitting, untouched and they're pissed and can't get a refund on their campsite reservations".....

Anyway, I do hope you find a happy medium and some equilibrium in your future RV experiences. I'll try harder not to be "dark" when responding to you, I'd ask that you also try to be a bit more accepting of reality about the RV industry. To Keystone (and probably your dealer) you're in a sea of battleships, rowing around in a dinghy. Don't make too many waves.....
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:53 PM   #26
sourdough
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Originally Posted by blubuckaroo
You know what John?
If I had heard any of your responses in this forum before we bought our trailer, we probably would have bought new luggage instead.
You have a real dark way of responding to comments.
We've had a good experience so far.
Please don't ruin it for us.

buckaroo;

I've not looked back at all your posts but this one clearly illustrates your ignorance of the comments made by John, his experience and help he has provided to who knows how many folks. Dark way of responding to comments? Heavens! Guess you haven't read mine. If trying to help folks, pointing out errors in thoughts/decisions as one can see (in their opinion) is "dark" don't know what to do to help you. If that in fact can "ruin" your RV experience maybe want to look for those "self supporting" comments....?
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Old 11-05-2019, 03:06 AM   #27
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Just a note from one of the mods to add perspective. We read EVERY post on here. Every one of them. Sometimes, after the fifteenth time (think about your kids asking why all the time, you'll get the idea) of reading how do I winterize, are Trailer King tires a good choice, I can't get my cable to work or my Prius will tow anything, you do go a little dark and jaded. Then you add being vigilant on political things (Epstein didn't kill himself), breaking up fights and refereeing sniper attacks between forum members and ... you get the picture.

Our job is to be honest, keep things moving smoothly, and make this an informative and fun place to hang out. All at no charge to any and all who stop by to hang out.

Ok kids, time to go outside and play. Daddy needs some quiet time in his safe place.
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