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Old 12-15-2017, 11:48 AM   #1
Freeheel4life
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Another tow vehicle thread

Wife and I have been shopping for a new TV (probably a ways out still), but wanted to get y'alls input as well.
Wants for the next vehicle:
*4x4
*Capacity to tow a reasonably sized 5er
*4 door cab for riding the dogs around(have 3rd door and rear bench and it's just too tight)
*Not wanting to spend crazy money so shopping used
*Preferably not a dually as we do a lot of snow driving and don't like the way they handle, but never had a lot of rear axle weight in the snow, maybe kingpin weight would make it better than I remember. Open to it of some guys in the mountain West are towing 5ers in snow and can convince me.

Otherwise I'm super open to suggestions. Is there a 3/4ton truck that will cut it or am I pretty much committed to a 1ton??
In a perfect world I would love to stick with a gasser, but seems like only platforms capable of handling it for mountain towing would be 6.2L or 6.4L hemi, maybe an 8.1L but I've had terrible experiences with the 8.1 at our boat shop so not really on the table for me. I know I will get crushed on MPG when towing but up front cost and overall maintenance costs seem to be much lower.
IF diesel is the ONLY answer then what platforms do y'all swear by?? 6.0 powerstroke is off the table for me. Older 7.3 powerstroke or even older pre powerstroke if I were to find one in good shape?? Honestly don't know much past the 12 and 24 valve Cummins. Our shop truck has the 6.6Dmax and have towed a lot of boats with it and one TT and like it, but not impressed with fuel economy while towing, but truck has also had SCR/urea issues that I think are affecting MPG.
DW and I both have commuter rigs so truck would be parked a lot of the time, so open to rigs with some miles. Current rig tows the trailer and gets firewood. Doing around 3k a year in miles.

Sorry for the novel, just a lot more knowledge and experience here and hoping to get "the facts" not marketing material.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:11 PM   #2
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Defining your needs more clearly, would go a long way.... i.e. "What is a reasonable sized 5ver to you.....35', 40', ??? and as far as weight goes, most 3/4 ton trucks simply do not have the payload capacity for very large 5vers.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:23 PM   #3
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Thanks xrated. For sake of the question let's call it a 35' Cougar. Seems like dry weight is around 10k for those units...call it another 500lbs of wate. We travel pretty light on gear but for fun call it 1k in gear. Seems like I could expect to creep up on 12k# on a 35' pretty easily.
Dream would be an Arctic Fox due to our primary use of camper but Northwood sure is proud of their products and price reflects that, and they are heavier. Dry 35' weighs in at 11208.
End goal is to not keep playing the bigger camper then bigger truck game, which I'm guessing is going to net me a lot of 1 ton dually diesel recommendations. Asking because I am curious what the other options are.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:53 PM   #4
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Freeheel, I'd say that you might want to stay with the one ton and shop for a gasser. You don't seem to tow it very far so who cares what the mileage might be? If I told you six to seven would be about what you could expect for the Cougar you spoke of would that scare you off? Eight on a really good day. John will probably join in shortly and he has experience with just the setup. I'll be he says the same thing.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:54 PM   #5
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If you find an IDI make sure it’s turbo’d. Mine is and it’s only rated at 190HP. I did some mods when I bought it and it now has about 230HP and probably300 lb/ft of torque. Not fast but a towing beast.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:55 PM   #6
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Freeheel, I'd say that you might want to stay with the one ton and shop for a gasser. You don't seem to tow it very far so who cares what the mileage might be? If I told you six to seven would be about what you could expect for the Cougar you spoke of would that scare you off? Eight on a really good day. John will probably join in shortly and he has experience with just the setup. I'll bet he says the same thing.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:09 PM   #7
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If you find an IDI make sure it’s turbo’d. Mine is and it’s only rated at 190HP. I did some mods when I bought it and it now has about 230HP and probably300 lb/ft of torque. Not fast but a towing beast.
You can bet if I go diesel it will not be NA. Unless I find a crazy deal and would plan on using money I save for intercooler, turbo, etc. Which wouldn't be the worst but seems like another project, and I wrench all day at work so sometimes its hard to motivate on some of that stuff. I picked up a 6.0 Powerstroke a while back that wasn't running. Tore it down and did an EGR delete and a bunch of other stuff. Lost high pressure pump shortly after all that and decided I was done. Made money on the deal at least. Just couldn't bring myself to trust road tripping in it and having to shell out for 2 tows if things hit thee fan. DW are kinda at the funny spot in life where if go with something like your TV we would be all cash up front as I don't know of anyone that will loan on a 90s rig, or we finance something at that 10year and up mark.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:14 PM   #8
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Freeheel, I'd say that you might want to stay with the one ton and shop for a gasser. You don't seem to tow it very far so who cares what the mileage might be? If I told you six to seven would be about what you could expect for the Cougar you spoke of would that scare you off? Eight on a really good day. John will probably join in shortly and he has experience with just the setup. I'll bet he says the same thing.
6 or 7 doesn't bother me at all, fuel is just the cost of having fun, is what is. I would be curious at what point getting 11-12 out of a diesel would pay off vs the upfront cost and maintenance costs if at all. I'm sure at some point the return on the diesel will catch up to upfront savings on gasser but imagine it takes a while. Longest haul we do is 170 miles one way currently. Maybe in the future we would do some longer hauls but would still be in PNW region (WA, OR, ID, and MT are a our main play areas. Occasionally UT and WY). No cross country hauls though.
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:34 PM   #9
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Here's my nickel....

If you're looking at mid sized 5th wheels it will be close on what you pick. Some things to think about. A gas (6.4) 3/4 ton Ram has a 12,500 tow limit with a 3.73 rear end. I believe the 4.10 jumps that to 15k or so. A one ton will give you additional payload (my 3/4 6.4 is 3190 I believe) and would probably be in the 4k range which will be handy with a very large pin weight. My 6.4 pulls our travel trailer (about 9300 loaded) and a bed full of stuff, along with me, DW and pup just fine. Grades don't pose a lot of a problem as of yet; it will pull 6% easily. It will rev but not bad. The road to our house from the bottom of the mountains (elev. 4000') to our house (9000') is about 6% - sometimes a little more, sometimes less. I lock out the top 2 gears and it will hit 3500 rpm occasionally when hitting the steeper parts. On this part I think I would recommend a one ton if the gas performance was acceptable.

On the other hand, I have always said that at 10k towed weight you needed a diesel. I still think that. That thought is because with that kind of weight I can see getting into a situation where it could stress a gas engine - especially taking off into unknown places. If you knew you wouldn't then that would be your decision. With the kinds of driving your doing, and not much of it, a gas engine might get you by. If you got up to towing 12k, I would just go with the diesel. And no, I have not found a way to justify the expense of a diesel "just to have it" or for it to pay for itself - unless you kept it 20 years and/or a half million miles. You have to "need" it so that equation doesn't even enter your mind.

All that to say I would recommend a one ton truck with a gas engine, 3.73.or 4.10 ratio (towing 10k or so). If towing much over 10k I think I would have to go with a diesel. Good luck in your search.
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:47 PM   #10
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Thanks sourdough. Got an unexpected .03 in that deal.
You bring up a point on length of ownership of said vehicle. Ive had my current vehicle for 11 years and it has less than 150k on it now (got it with 36k miles on it) and the intent was to keep it but the trailer got bigger. Got the commuter 3 years ago so truck sits a lot more. In theory the next truck would hopefully be my last, at least for 15-20 years ideally.
JTRJH linked me to a nice rig in the 2018 Super Duty thread, and I realized I failed to mention in the opening.....4x4 is a must. Edited OP to reflect
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:51 PM   #11
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There is a member who just yesterday posted a new F350 gas truck that he is considering. It listed less than $50K and was, from the payload/specs, an ideal truck for towing a fifth wheel up to about 12500. That said, it was a new truck. There are "bunches" of used trucks that are about 3-5 years old with less than 50K miles that would list for $20-30K. Those are, with careful shopping, a reasonable alternative to a new truck, very capable of towing a 35' fifth wheel and would do it with an MPG of 7-8 on calm days, slightly less with a headwind.

Now, as for the 3/4 vs 1 ton argument (and yes, it's an argument every time it comes up). Critics say they are the "same truck with different GVW's" and yet others say, "The 1 ton trucks ride rougher, so get a 3/4 ton truck for comfort." Obviously, both can't be correct, and that argument will continue long after most of us give up and just go buy a truck we like..... So, my suggestion would be to do what makes sense to you, both financially and from a towing capability vantage....

For me, I'd look at a new/nearly new 1 ton F350 crew cab with a 6.2, 3.73 axle ratio and the long bed (since it's not a daily driver). That said, if I found an ideal short bed truck that had everything I wanted, I wouldn't hold out for the long bed, but realize there's a 10 gallon difference in fuel tank size between the two bed lengths. Otherwise, they are essentially the same truck.
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:16 PM   #12
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Thank you John. Great tip on the longbed, had no clue in regards to tank size. I haven't researched payload numbers that extensively yet but it seems a fair assumption that the 1 ton is going to have more payload capacity as a general rule ya??
Noticed you seem to be the guy that crunches the numbers since I've joined and seems like 3/4 ton truck can usually tow it but you end up over payload due to kingpin weight + passengers and gear when you are crunching the #'s for others. Besides wear and tear on suspension, frame and engine due to overload what are your other gripes with running overloaded as it seems to be a sticking point when you crunch the #s ??
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:37 PM   #13
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For me, running overloaded is more a moral and legal issue. I've no doubt that there is adequate payload to "safely tow" with an F250 using the limitations of the F350 that's comparably equipped. The problem, as I see it, is that sooner or later the states are going to realize the "cash cow" that's readily available to fund the state deficit. It's only a matter of time before they start mandating that all RV's use the state weight stations. Once they start that, if they enforce the payload limit, there's going to be a lot of F250's on the used car lots. If the "ambulance chasers" start finding "victims of overloaded RV's" it's just a matter of time before the insurance companies stop looking the other way....

All of this sounds like "doom and gloom" and it may well be just that and nothing more. But, the way I see it, if you're sitting in court and can draw a chart "proving" you were not overweight, they've got to find another reason to take your money. On the other hand, if you can't show that you met all of the manufacturer's limits (payload, axles, GVW, GCW and max trailer weight) then you're on an "uphill battle" just to get back to "even ground"..... So, for me, it's reasonable to meet ALL the numbers and not have to look over my shoulder if anything should ever happen.... Otherwise, there's a "vulnerable underbelly" that someone can attack if things go topsy turvy and you wind up on your backside, belly up...... YMMV
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:09 PM   #14
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My $0.02. You are upgrading now from a travel trailer to a 5th wheel. Who's to say you don't upgrade again in 5 years to a heavier and/or bigger 5th wheel? I'd opt for a 1 ton so you don't limit yourself down the road.

On the flip side, if you are buying used, probably more 3/4 tons out there than 1 tons, so 3/4 tons are likely a little less expensive due to supply.

I know you don't want a dually, but it is awesome to tow with. On my maiden voyage from KY to CO, stopped at a truck stop in Kansas. Guy I walked inside with says to me "you must be getting blown all over the road with that wind." My response was "what wind?" Then he looks at my truck and says "oh, yeah, you're good." Just sayin'.
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:47 PM   #15
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IMHO you cut yourself short if plan on towing 10k+ and overlook the basic premise of why so many RVers tow with a turbo diesel. Simply put, they are made for towing these heavy 5ers.
If you look at used trucks from 2008 or newer you'll get 300+ HP and over 400 ft lb torque, 6 speed trans. and an engine brake.
We found our 07.5 Ram on line a few years ago with everything we wanted and only 29k miles on it. Saved nearly $20k over new.
Would agree with others about getting a 1 ton over a 3/4; but for our Cougar, our 2500 is working out just fine.
We tow in the rockies (like you) a lot. Don't tow in the winter but still have 4x4 as a must have. Club cab is great and the rear seat folds down for cargo or pets. Would not trade our Ram TD for any other gasser I've ever owned.
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Old 12-15-2017, 06:38 PM   #16
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Thanks for all the great responses fellas.
John,
Great points. I certainly don't want to bring a knife to the gunfight so with that and others .02 I'm settling in on the fact that the 1ton is the answer.
Like Capt stated, don't want to get "out trailered" down the road. I can tell already that my wife will want to upgrade probably the day we pay off our current rig.
Capt,
Have you ran your dually in wet snow?? I had a 1 ton flat bed as a work rig and I hated it. When you come up out the valley/lower elevations I found that heavy wet snow on the way up and over passes would offer up tons of rolling resistance to the duallies. Had a large Jobox, oxy/acetelyne rig, and welder on the bed and always hated it in wet/warmer temp snow. Cold,blowing, drifting snow it was never a factor. Curious if others have experienced this or if I am being a big cry baby. I could maybe see where kingpin weight would stick those tires to the road more and push snow out of the way possibly...but would love some anecdotal evidence.
Canon,
What is displacement of your engine?? Is it DPF or SCR?? Just don't know much about Dodge rigs. Have you had any issues with your rig??
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:50 PM   #17
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I have the 6.7 Turbo Diesel. DPF but before the rule on SCR and DEF.
2007.5 (6.7L)
Auto Trans:
350 hp @ 3,013 rpm
650 lb-ft @ 1,500 rpm
6.7L Cummins introduced mid-model year as replacement for the 5.9L; meets stricter emissions regulations, diesel particulate filter (DPF) becomes standard equipment.

Because of the heavier 6.7 power plant Ram did have recalls to beef up the front end. It was a minor inconvenience to have the work done at no cost to us. They also replaced the airbags. All was upgraded in later models. That's it.
If you're planning on a 10k+ 5er a 1 ton is the way to go in order to get the payload you'll need to handle the pin weight. Our Cougar is all we need so 3/4 will do it for us. Any bigger though and I'd definitely trade up to 1 ton just to be sure\safe.
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Old 12-16-2017, 04:21 AM   #18
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Not had any trouble getting around with my dually but I also understand your concern about slushy snow. With the pin weight of your RV on your truck the slush would be a non issue in my opinion. Another item Canonman mentioned is the exhaust brake on a diesel...Awesome!! Hardly ever have to touch the brake to slow down unless your stopping in a hurry, downhills are so easy with the engine brake, If you do a lot of mountain roads you'll wonder how you ever did without one!
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Old 12-16-2017, 07:23 AM   #19
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Capt,
Have you ran your dually in wet snow?? I had a 1 ton flat bed as a work rig and I hated it. When you come up out the valley/lower elevations I found that heavy wet snow on the way up and over passes would offer up tons of rolling resistance to the duallies. Had a large Jobox, oxy/acetelyne rig, and welder on the bed and always hated it in wet/warmer temp snow. Cold,blowing, drifting snow it was never a factor. Curious if others have experienced this or if I am being a big cry baby. I could maybe see where kingpin weight would stick those tires to the road more and push snow out of the way possibly...but would love some anecdotal evidence.
This will be my first winter with the dually. Like you, don't have to use it as a daily driver, so not concerned. Left the Ford/Reese hitch installed to provide some extra weight over the axle. Will see how it does.
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Old 12-16-2017, 08:12 AM   #20
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Look at this, you can get a brand new full warranty ram 3500 4X4, Long Box, 6.4L Gas, 4.10 Rear, 5th Wheel-Gooseneck Prep, Back Up Camera, Brake controller for under $35000.

https://www.jeffbelzersdodgeram.com/...8cd1639629.htm

Have both a 6.7 Cummins and a 6.4 Gas/4.10 rear Ram. The 6.4 will get the job done. I've pulled 15,000 LB's up a fairly steep grade with the 6.4. The main advantage the 6.7 Has is the exhaust brake, but in all reality for our purposes and the low mileage both trucks see, the 6.4 would do the job both trucks are intended for.
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