Surge Protectors

reddog7571 · 03-09-2017, 06:09 AM

What's the opinions on surge protectors? Who's is the best model for the money?

busterbrown · 03-09-2017, 06:51 AM

Brand, I would suggest Progressive Industries. Model depends on portability vs permanent mount mgmt system as well as amperage.

PARAPTOR · 03-09-2017, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddog7571

What's the opinions on surge protectors? Who's is the best model for the money?

A must have!! Worth their weight in gold! Surge Guard, Progressive are rhe most popular, Ford/Chevy analogy

I would suggest doing a search on this forum on "Surge Protection ", "EMS" tons of information on this topic for you to make a selection

**sourdough** · 03-09-2017, 09:25 AM

Folks have their opinions on surge protectors but as was noted I think Surge Guard and Progressive are probably the two most popular. I would get the best one they have whichever maker you choose.

Just got back from FL for 3 months. We had lots of thunder storms and some heavy lightning. After a particularly bad storm one evening I heard my neighbor out banging around his trailer and doing "stuff". Next morning I asked if they had a problem and lightning had hit our power. Our surge protector (Surge Guard) had just cut off the power to our trailer and then it came back on. His trailer, although he had an older, cheaper Progressive (he said he "thought" it was), had gotten fried. He lost his TV, some other appliances and the machine that ran his oxygen. They were in a twist for several days with the medical/oxygen company there about 5 times trying to get him fixed. He ended up walking around with a little air bottle on a small cart behind him.

All that to highlight that a good surge protector is in the MUST have category. Ours has saved us several times.

Outback 325BH · 03-09-2017, 10:00 AM

Although my Progressive Industries EMS has surge protection (along with its other protections)...

And although my Hughes Autoformer has surge protection (along with its primary duty as a transformer)...

I include a Progressive Industries Surge Protector (stand-alone device separate from the two mentioned above) in my arsenal. I plug it into the pedestal, followed by the Hughes Autoformer, followed by the PI EMS.

The reasoning being to protect the much more expensive devices from surges.

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cardinal96ss · 03-09-2017, 10:17 AM

Using an additional stand alone plug-in. Now you've got me thinking. Why not add that as cheap insurance?

PARAPTOR · 03-09-2017, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardinal96ss

Using an additional stand alone plug-in. Now you've got me thinking. Why not add that as cheap insurance?

I think having redundant surge protectors installed may be an over kill, however, having a backup portable surge protector given your primary one is hardwired, I feel may be cheap insurance. My point is, if for some reason you loose that hardwired one you will have to get the power restored and eventually have it replaced. Some units have an internal bypass to restore the power, other members have installed their own bypass switch. Either way you will be without surge protection until replaced. Some claim they have lifetime warranties, not sure what you will have to return (complete unit or electronics only) and the length of time to get your replacement. If complete unit has to be returned you will need to get power restored by reconnecting the shore power cable to the power distribution panel. As stated during this period you will have no protection. So this is the only reason I think a second portable surge protection unit will gain you anything.

One disadvantage of the hardwired ones, job to get them installed and a similar effort to replace them

Portable units much easier to replace, but they can get legs and then you have nothing

Outback 325BH · 03-09-2017, 03:19 PM

Redundant Surge Protectors probably are overkill, however in a Surge event I would rather fry my $90 surge protector instead of my $600 Autoformer.

I'm not using multiple surge protectors for redundancy, I'm just wanting to use the cheap one as the sacrificial one.

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capnttom · 03-09-2017, 04:26 PM

Many moons ago when I was a young Electrical Engineer, I designed control panels for various outdoor locations. Many of my designs were for Florida locations. To us design engineers Florida was known as lightning alley, as Florida has a very high concentration of lightning. One of the most challenging design parameters was protecting against lightning induced surges. It is challenging for many reasons and I won't get into all the math and such. But, the most important aspect of protecting against surges is proper grounding.

Grounding is important because when dissipating the surge, there must be a very low resistance to ground. This is where things get a little tricky as it applies to our toys. One never really know how well the electrical environment at RV parks are grounded, so there is some risk. However, and here is where I will offer some opinion, I prefer my primary protection to be located at the supply point. I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, which is fine, but here is my rationale from an electrical point of view.

Most of our RV supply cables are 50 feet, or so, long. As such, the ground wire from the cable has a resistance/impedance which can be very important. Why? Because if your surge protection is in the RV, then the energy from a surge must travel this 50 feet back to ground back to the electric service ground. Conversely, if the surge protection device is at the service location there is less resistance/impedance, which makes for a more efficient transfer of energy. That's the quantitative view of the situation.

One might ask next does that really matter? It's a depends answer. It depends on how well the surge device is designed, such as the responsive of the components etc. Trust me, there are a lot of variables. So...my choice is to reduce the risk of long ground wires and put the surge device at the service location.

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**sourdough** · 03-09-2017, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capnttom

Many moons ago when I was a young Electrical Engineer, I designed control panels for various outdoor locations. Many of my designs were for Florida locations. To us design engineers Florida was known as lightning alley, as Florida has a very high concentration of lightning. One of the most challenging design parameters was protecting against lightning induced surges. It is challenging for many reasons and I won't get into all the math and such. But, the most important aspect of protecting against surges is proper grounding.

Grounding is important because when dissipating the surge, there must be a very low resistance to ground. This is where things get a little tricky as it applies to our toys. One never really know how well the electrical environment at RV parks are grounded, so there is some risk. However, and here is where I will offer some opinion, I prefer my primary protection to be located at the supply point. I'm sure there are those who will disagree with me, which is fine, but here is my rationale from an electrical point of view.

Most of our RV supply cables are 50 feet, or so, long. As such, the ground wire from the cable has a resistance/impedance which can be very important. Why? Because if your surge protection is in the RV, then the energy from a surge must travel this 50 feet back to ground back to the electric service ground. Conversely, if the surge protection device is at the service location there is less resistance/impedance, which makes for a more efficient transfer of energy. That's the quantitative view of the situation.

One might ask next does that really matter? It's a depends answer. It depends on how well the surge device is designed, such as the responsive of the components etc. Trust me, there are a lot of variables. So...my choice is to reduce the risk of long ground wires and put the surge device at the service location.

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Excellent points!

The NEC has lots of rules on grounding. As the length of the run increases so does the requirement for the gauge of wire used for the ground. That alone makes me use a protector at the ped. A 50' run requires a substantial gauge of wire. I don't have faith that my 50A RV cord can carry a lightning bolt through it....in fact I know it can't - thus, stop it at the source. I can live with a damaged ped; I don't want to try to rewire the trailer.

Remember that AC follows the path of least resistance. Once you have reached a certain level of resistance in your RV cable, the surge is going to find another way to ground instead of something installed inside the RV as a protection device. I've seen protectors blown off walls, ground wires blown into and back in about '70 or so I saw a telephone (the old kind/heavy plastic/desk phone) completely melted on a person's counter - all due to improper grounding. I'm sure many have seen similar things.

It might seem like a lot of fuss over something we don't think much about but mother nature can sure pack a wallop in a lightning bolt.

gearhead · 03-09-2017, 05:49 PM

I debated with my self over hard wired or portable. Mostly because I guess I'm lazy I went portable. Progressive Industries. I didn't want to tear into the RV to install a hard wired one. Also didn't want to keep up with a "magic plug" when running off a generator.
Montana is 50amp, cabover is 30amp. I have a "leftover" 30amp SurgeGuard from the Cougar that I won't use on the cabover. Too many bad reviews and horror stories floating around about SurgeGuard for me.

Outback 325BH · 03-09-2017, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearhead

I debated with my self over hard wired or portable. Mostly because I guess I'm lazy I went portable. Progressive Industries. I didn't want to tear into the RV to install a hard wired one. Also didn't want to keep up with a "magic plug" when running off a generator.

Are you saying the portable EMS doesn't check for floating neutral? I'm trying to understand how a portable prevents you from having to use the "magic plug". (Although the "magic plug" isn't complicated nor is it magic.)

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ctbruce · 03-10-2017, 03:25 AM

Some interesting thoughtful ideas here. I always thought of the PI EMS as the end all to end all. But it makes logical sense to have a portable and a permanent in the system. Do they interfere with each others opetation? How does use of a generator (built in or portable ) fit into this?

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Fuzion Impact 312
2017 3500HD Silverado LTZ

gearhead · 03-10-2017, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback 325BH

Are you saying the portable EMS doesn't check for floating neutral? I'm trying to understand how a portable prevents you from having to use the "magic plug". (Although the "magic plug" isn't complicated nor is it magic.)

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I don't use any surge protection when running a generator.
Magic plug, simple plug, floating neutral plug; call it whatever you want. Magic was easy to type.

gearhead · 03-10-2017, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctbruce

Some interesting thoughtful ideas here. I always thought of the PI EMS as the end all to end all. But it makes logical sense to have a portable and a permanent in the system. Do they interfere with each others opetation? How does use of a generator (built in or portable ) fit into this?

Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Fuzion Impact 312
2017 3500HD Silverado LTZ

Several years ago I posted about a surge protector kicking power off when using a portable generator. Someone replied, I think it was John the moderator, and explained it. It has to do with no ground being detected. The magic plug eliminates that issue. I don't know about a built in generator. I assume if it was OEM that they mitigated the issue.
For me, I didn't want a permanent install that required tearing into the RV and tearing into it again for any problems. It's just something else to go wrong that complicates my complicated enough life. I didn't want to keep up with the magic plug that if lost would leave me powerless.

Dave W · 03-10-2017, 05:18 AM

I guess what I'm reading between the lines is that a permanent installation will take care of an errant power system surge or a voltage drop to or below 90VAC but the portable one will handle that lightning strike nearby that hasn't melted a transformer or 'blown' the line mounted breakers (as happens regularly in my neighborhood). I have a Surge Guard and so far it has tripped a couple times in CGs due to low voltage but never from a surge according to my optional digital reader. Installation really easy though a portable one only requires you to find the end of your pigtail and the pedestal 30 or 50 amp receptacle. At this point, an EMS might be a better choice with more 'things' that it can do plus a better customer service attitude.

gearhead · 03-10-2017, 05:54 AM

^^The permanent Progressive EMS may take care of the same problems as their portable. It's been a few years since I looked at them.

Outback 325BH · 03-10-2017, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearhead

I don't use any surge protection when running a generator.

Magic plug, simple plug, floating neutral plug; call it whatever you want. Magic was easy to type.

My point was, a portable EMS will not prevent you from using the "magic plug" when using a generator with an open neutral. The portable EMS has the same electrical checks as the hard-wired EMS.

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Alpine · 03-10-2017, 07:47 AM

Have used this one nearly 4 years (full-timers). Only once did it cut off complete power to the 5ver, then automatically resets itself. Another instance it detected a faulty power pedestal, and we just moved to another site. Very cheap insurance & I don't mind "doing the work" plugging it in at the pedestal each time!

B-O-B'03 · 03-10-2017, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outback 325BH

Are you saying the portable EMS doesn't check for floating neutral? I'm trying to understand how a portable prevents you from having to use the "magic plug". (Although the "magic plug" isn't complicated nor is it magic.)

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I am betting since it is portable, he does not have to use it with the generator?

I have the hardwired, 30 amp, progressive unit and a "magic" plug. They are not that hard to keep up with, I know exactly where it is and if it did ever wander off, you can disable the progressive unit with a switch on the remote display.

-Brian

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