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Old 02-08-2017, 11:09 AM   #1
NJdudette
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Vehicle to tow a fifth wheel - tow rating

I own a 2016 Keystone Cougar 288RLS and am looking to upgrade my ride to a Ford F-250. A dealer has located a vehicle for me, but it doesn't have the 5th wheel/gooseneck prep package. According to the Trailer Life Tow Guide, this vehicle can only tow 12,500 lbs and I need a minimum of 15,000 lbs. I balked on the vehicle. The dealer says a company can upfit the truck to include to include the 5th wheel prep package and increase the towing capacity from 12,500 to 15,000 lbs - that part doesn't sound right. Can they increase the tow rating of a vehicle? I'm not mechanical, but it doesn't sound right.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:15 AM   #2
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Don't see how a factory 5th wheel prep would be any different than installing a regular 5th wheel hitch. They are both anchored to the frame. I'm surprised a new F250 will only be rated for a 12,500# 5er. Also it depends on powertrain (gas or diesel) and rear diff. ratio.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:23 AM   #3
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A FW is in F350 territory due to the limited payload capacity of a F250.

For a point of reference, my F250 CC gasser only has 2668 lbs of payload. A diesel in the same configuration and trim would have even less payload capacity. A loaded 15,000 lb FW would have approximately 3,000 lbs on the pin far exceeding the F250's payload capacity.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:26 AM   #4
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I think I'm reading the guide correctly.

F-250 CC SRW 4WD - 6.2L V-8 - 3.73 Electronic locking axel = 12,100 lbs (I orig said 12,500)
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:28 AM   #5
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A FW is in F350 territory due to the limited payload capacity of a F250.
That's the part I don't understand - payload capacity. I was always looking at tow ratings.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:36 AM   #6
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[QUOTE=NJdudette;223480]
Quote:
Originally Posted by slow View Post
A FW is in F350 territory due to the limited payload capacity of a F250.

That's the part I don't understand - payload capacity. I was always looking at tow ratings.
Towing capacity is a scam... they tout it like our trailers have no hitch weight..
I didn't look but I guess from the way you're talking your trailer is a 5th wheel...

Payload, Payload.. and you are in 350 SRW territory leaning to dually country... anything pushing 3K pin weight is dually country.. if you're gonna carry much in the way of family, dogs, and such...
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:41 AM   #7
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^^^^What Javi said....he is spot on.
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:48 AM   #8
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Thanks so much for the info!! It's just me camping with my two small dogs, so it's not like I cart a lot of junk with me. I wanted a slightly larger trailer, had a 30 ft travel trailer, and my dad talked me into a 35 ft fifth wheel. I like the extra room, but it is a bit much considering it's just me ;-)
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Old 02-08-2017, 11:58 AM   #9
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Question

Payload Payload ....payload. Maybe this will help, there is a sticker on the passenger frame that signifies the payload that your truck can safely haul. That number include people, gas, hitch, cargo, etc. When you subtract all these from the sticker payload that is what is left for your FW pin weight. Look at it like you truck has to carry part of the weight of the FW (its pin weight). I would also agree with the previous post that as an estimate of pin weight for the FW in question would be 20%, ie 20% of the weight of the FW will be applied to the pin. Therefore Estimated pin weight would be 20% of 15000 or around 3,000 lbs. In this example your truck will need a payload capacity of at least 3K plus weight of people, hitch, etc. Those numbers are in the 3500 truck range
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:07 PM   #10
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My fifth wheel has a GVWR of 12,105. I have Ford's brochure plus I found the pin weight capacity for my trailer is 3,200 lbs. According to Ford's brochure, an F-250 SRW 4x4, crew cab 159.7" WB has a payload of 3,450 lbs <--- too close with 3,200 lbs?
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:07 PM   #11
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The 5er you have is rated at 12000# GVWR with a pin weight of 1700#.
Close to the max for an F250.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJdudette View Post
My fifth wheel has a GVWR of 12,105. I have Ford's brochure plus I found the pin weight capacity for my trailer is 3,200 lbs. According to Ford's brochure, an F-250 SRW 4x4, crew cab 159.7" WB has a payload of 3,450 lbs <--- too close with 3,200 lbs?
I think where you're "missing the data" is when you quote "Ford's brochure". The information in the brochure is the "best situation in a specific vehicle line" and does not reflect the capacity of your specific vehicle. So, to rely on the brochure, you'll need to determine which "base level, single seat model" that Ford used to determine the "best in class" information they printed.

As an example, the maximum GVW for any (current model) F250 is limited to either 9900 or 10000 pounds. The payload is the difference between the vehicle weight and the GVW. So it stands to reason that a single cab short bed, 2WD base model truck with no options will weigh significantly less than a luxury "option packed" crew cab 4WD model. That means that the 3450 pound payload "IN THE BROCHURE" can't apply to both trucks with the given GVW.

The only weights that apply to your truck are those on the yellow sticker that you'll find on the driver's door jam. Look at that, realize that's the absolute maximum weight you can "legally carry" and go from there. Remember that if you've added seat covers, spray in bed liner, running boards, fifth wheel hitch, GPS, maps in the glove compartment, etc, all of that "extra cargo and accessories" must be deducted from the "yellow sticker payload"... All of that must be deducted, even before you put the first cooler, passenger or stick of firewood in the truck or hitch up the trailer.

Most gas supercab or crew cab F250's have a payload of around 2600-2800 pounds and most with the diesel engine have payloads of around 1800-2200 pounds. The Lariat, King Ranch and Platinum model payloads are significantly less than the XL and XLT models because of the "extra stuff" the factory packs into the option packages.

My guess is that you'll be over your payload and over your maximum trailer specifications with a Cougar 288 and a 2011-2016 F250. There's not a "hill of beans" difference between those truck models and the 2017 models, not because of "truck ability" but rather because of the 10,000 GVW limit.

My recommendation, if you're "heart set" on towing a 35' Cougar, you'd be better served just getting an F350 and not having to worry about the "legal ramifications" should anything happen.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:51 PM   #13
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Thanks everyone for your help, I really learned quite a bit. You'd all be shaking your head with what I've been towing it with. Camping World should have never sold me that trailer.
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Old 02-08-2017, 12:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJdudette View Post
I own a 2016 Keystone Cougar 288RLS and am looking to upgrade my ride to a Ford F-250. A dealer has located a vehicle for me, but it doesn't have the 5th wheel/gooseneck prep package. According to the Trailer Life Tow Guide, this vehicle can only tow 12,500 lbs and I need a minimum of 15,000 lbs. I balked on the vehicle. The dealer says a company can upfit the truck to include to include the 5th wheel prep package and increase the towing capacity from 12,500 to 15,000 lbs - that part doesn't sound right. Can they increase the tow rating of a vehicle? I'm not mechanical, but it doesn't sound right.
The trailer listed shows a GVW of 12100. Approx. pin weight north of 2000 it would seem but not 3200 IMO - I don't know where that comes from - it seems pretty high. The brochure is too generic to tell you your payload. Look at the sticker on the inside of the driver's door and it will tell you - 3450 seems awfully optimistic.

On top of the payload issue is just the sheer weight of the trailer and trying to pull it with a gas engine. I pull 10k with a 6.4L Ram with numbers very close to the 6.2L Ford and I wouldn't put that trailer behind my truck; you need more oooomph! I've always said you need a diesel pulling anything over 10k and I think that holds true IMO. In fact, I've started looking at them (diesel 350/3500) this week to pull what I have, or, something else?? in the future. Don't listen to a salesman to give you the skinny on a TV - do your research and you will be doing yourself a favor.
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Old 02-08-2017, 05:56 PM   #15
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Since I think I understand that you already have the trailer, do this...hook it up to your present truck. Take it to a CAT scale at a truck stop. Get the front axle of the truck on the front section of the scale, the truck rear axle on the middle scale, and the trailer wheels on the third scale. Go unhook the trailer at home or wherever. Go right back to scale and weigh the truck axles again. Take the previous scale ticket with you. Tell them it is a re-weigh. They only charge a dollar or two. Go home and do the math.
If you're getting around 3,000# pin weight and want a Ford you better go dually. Been there.
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Old 02-08-2017, 07:30 PM   #16
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This is a great training video used by RV Safety to explain tow ratings and payload ratings. Also describes how to match you truck to the RV.

http://rvsafety.com/rv-education/mat...ks-to-trailers
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Old 02-09-2017, 03:06 AM   #17
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I just bought a new 3500HD. The cost difference between it and the 2500 was small. For a slight increase in cost I got a lot more truck. I'd bypass the 250 for that reason alone.

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Old 02-09-2017, 04:24 AM   #18
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Some real world info.....
2011 F250 Crew Cab 4x4 with the 6 1/2' bed and the 6.7 Diesel...3.31 rear end, XLT model.
Yellow sticker on the "B" pillar for cargo carrying capacity....2160 lbs.

Those numbers made me change from my original plans to buy a 5th. Wheel Toy Hauler to a TT style toy hauler. I just couldn't swing a newer truck (F350 dually) AND the trailer.
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Old 02-09-2017, 04:33 AM   #19
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I bought a 3500 dually for the same price as my '16 2500 was. With those numbers you're posting, you need a bigger truck. Once you add the hitch, people, etc. you will be over. Also, if you look at one with the fifth wheel factory prep, the payload will be slightly higher then one not factory prepped.
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Old 02-09-2017, 05:02 AM   #20
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The first question is what is included in the prep package? The reason I ask, it makes me cringe when a dealer says aftermarket, especially Ford. Here's why. The Ford explorer is available with a trailering package which includes a receiver hitch, HD transmission cooler, and engine oil cooler. It is a factory fit option only, not available to be ordered/added by the dealer. If you buy an Explorer without the package and decide you want to tow, your only option is an after market hitch. If you have powertrain problems while still under warranty and Ford sees the hitch without the tow package, guess what? Yep, warranty claim denied. I've seen it happen. Again, my question is, what does Ford add with the 5th wheel prep package?
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