400I Solarflex system not equipped properly by Keystone

[RV Vacation]

I don't know nothing about solar and lithium batteries so I must ask. If a 55 amp charge from a 120 volt on board charging unit is too low of a charge and might damage lithium batteries than how the heck does charging with [overrated] 200 watt solar panel(s) not damage lithium batteries??? What am I missing here? Besides my mind... I mean.

FYI... I was told, the batteries will charge from my tow vehicle when connected. Though I have not verified that the batteries do charge when my tow vehicle is connected (190 amp alternator) who am I to question the knowledge of a honest RV salesman?

[SargeW]

There is a very precise Solar Controller that regulates the charge that goes into the batteries. The parameters are set in the Victron app, and specifically charge the lithium batteries as to their requirements.

The solar charging was never an issue, it was the alternate sources of charging such as shore power or generator that was short charging the batteries. So it was on cloudy days, or camp sites in the shade that require another charging source.

My very capable generator was taking several hours of run time to bring the batteries back up to even half of their useful charge, which is wasteful and annoying. The converter wasn't supplying the batteries with the full amount of charge that they were designed for. Now it is.

Your batteries most likely are charging by the tow vehicle generator, but not knowing how Keystone wired the rig, it's hard to say for certain. There are chargers called "battery to battery" chargers that are designed to specifically charge LI batteries with voltage from your vehicle alternator. Without one it is unknown how efficient a 12 volt charge from an alternator would be to charge the battery bank.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RV Vacation

I don't know nothing about solar and lithium batteries so I must ask. If a 55 amp charge from a 120 volt on board charging unit is too low of a charge and might damage lithium batteries than how the heck does charging with [overrated] 200 watt solar panel(s) not damage lithium batteries??? What am I missing here? Besides my mind... I mean.

FYI... I was told, the batteries will charge from my tow vehicle when connected. Though I have not verified that the batteries do charge when my tow vehicle is connected (190 amp alternator) who am I to question the knowledge of a honest RV salesman?

Not to be overly simplistic, but you're confusing voltage and amperage.

Amperage is the "power available"

Voltage is the "pressure level to push that power into the battery"...

So, depending on your converter/charger, if it's set up for lead acid batteries the voltage will be around 13.2-13.6 VDC. If it's set up for Lithium batteries, the voltage ill be 14.2-14.6 VDC. It's that higher voltage that allows your 55 amp or your 14 amp (200 watt solar panel) to push the amperage into the battery.

Again, this is an "overly simplistic" explanation, so don't consider it "all things technical related to FLA/lithium battery differences in charging"....

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by RV Vacation

I don't know nothing about solar and lithium batteries so I must ask. If a 55 amp charge from a 120 volt on board charging unit is too low of a charge and might damage lithium batteries than how the heck does charging with [overrated] 200 watt solar panel(s) not damage lithium batteries??? What am I missing here? Besides my mind... I mean.

FYI... I was told, the batteries will charge from my tow vehicle when connected. Though I have not verified that the batteries do charge when my tow vehicle is connected (190 amp alternator) who am I to question the knowledge of a honest RV salesman?

While your truck may have an alternator capable of 190 amps, applying such a load thru the wire in 7 water connector would melt the wire. That wire loom mishthave a #10 for the battery connection but more likekly it's #12 or 14.

[JRTJH]

To add to what Marshal posted, here is a photo of the actual wiring harness behind the 7 pin umbilical in a 2015 Ford F250-350. As you can see, all the wires are the same size, 14 gauge. There are 7 wires, so nothing is "hidden from view"...

You simply can't push 50 amps through any "charge wire on a truck umbilical".

Those that "do it" either burn up their truck wiring or are using a "direct DC charge line", not the truck 7 pin umbilical.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by SargeW

Now the resolution: IT APPEARS FOR NOW THAT THE SITUATION HAD BEEN FIXED

The converter came back from WFCO with the promise from their tech support that the new firmware was installed, and it was switched to LI mode charging only.

So I am going to call this one a win! The converter is acting like it is supposed to, the batteries and charging quickly, and the Honda is handling it all easily.

so now apparently this wasn't working right on the solar either, did you check your solar charge controller to make sure it is set in Li mode also? might not even need to use a generator if it is set up and working properly.

[SargeW]

No, the solar is working perfectly. That was not the problem. If you read the whole thread you would see that the only problem is that when on cloudy overcast days, or under shade trees are when the batteries were not being charged properly.

Just like any other solar array, it works great under ideal conditions.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by SargeW

No, the solar is working perfectly. That was not the problem. If you read the whole thread you would see that the only problem is that when on cloudy overcast days, or under shade trees are when the batteries were not being charged properly.

Just like any other solar array, it works great under ideal conditions.

I did read the whole thing and the way you were talking about the disappointment with the solar experience made it sound like it wasn't working properly also, but looking at it again it just looks under sized for what you're using. 12V compressor fridges use a lot of power.....

Overcast conditions won't drop off the voltage of the solar, unless it's so overcast its pitch black, it will only drop how many amps you are charging at.

for example, in my 5th wheel I get about 23 amps in perfect noon sunlight, but in the rain and overcast that can drop off to 7 to 10 amps but my voltage always remains the same. even at 7am I am getting 1 amp of charge at full voltage.

But that's probably not that you meant, and it was more just the fact that with your power use you need more panel capacity

[S6RODEO]

hello, we have a system on a 2022 cougar res that i fear hasn't been working since get go. the panel continually shows bulk and not wattage and charger not started on app.

all connections on tight on pv etc. how do you check the connection on the roof to see if connected sorry we haven't used solar and going dry camping in a couple and trying to see why not working.

soarl is on etc.

thanks for your help

[Squanto]

Thanks for this thread. I got into the settings for my Victron components, the MPPT 100/30 and the Smart shunt. I switched them from the default AGM batteries to the Lithium batteries and we're now charged up to 14.2V I think we're going to be able to boondock a lot longer now too since the depletion % was 50 and is now 5.

The need to set up DC-DC charging from my truck is now back burnered for a while.

[Squanto]

Originally Posted by S6RODEO

hello, we have a system on a 2022 cougar res that i fear hasn't been working since get go. the panel continually shows bulk and not wattage and charger not started on app.

all connections on tight on pv etc. how do you check the connection on the roof to see if connected sorry we haven't used solar and going dry camping in a couple and trying to see why not working.

soarl is on etc.

thanks for your help

What kind of batteries and charge components do you have?

[Squanto]

I have the 400i with 2 Dragonfly batteries and my system also came set up for AGMs rather than Li. I have fixed that but I'm still disappointed in the charge rate. I have the Victron Smart Solar MPPT 100/30. Does that perform the same function as the WFCO converter?

[SargeW]

No, your Victron Solar Controller and Shunt just controls the incoming power from your solar panels. And they do a very good job of it. The WFCO converter controls the power from a generator or shore power to your batteries when you are plugged in. I discovered that my solar was also set to Lead Acid (LA) from Keystone. That reduces the voltage that is available to the LI batteries when charging. I had a few terrible experiences while boondocking with my system that way that it was set up from the factory.

I first went into the Victron controller and shunt and set the charge rate to LI, which helped. That made my peak charge while on solar up to 14.6 volts, instead of the 13.2 to 13.6 of LA. That helped some, but what I really needed was my generator to hit the batteries with 45 to 50 amps while boondocking. One of LI batteries big advantages is to be able to accept a high input amperage and recharge much quicker than LA.

That's when I discovered that the generator was taking up to 6 hours of continuous run time just to get the batteries back to an 80% SOC. A call to WFCO confirmed that the converter was in need of a firmware update that only they could do. With that update and switching my converter to a LI only charge rate the results were amazing. I am about to post another separate post on the results of a recent test.

[Squanto]

I see. Thanks.

So, do I likely have a WFCO converter also? I don't have a genset but I do notice the charging is different when I'm on shore power.

[SargeW]

Originally Posted by Squanto

I see. Thanks.

So, do I likely have a WFCO converter also? I don't have a genset but I do notice the charging is different when I'm on shore power.

Could be. If so it would either be incorporated in the lower half of your electrical distribution panel, or it could be a deck converter mounted to the floor behind the distribution panel.

Also check to see if your Inverter is just an Inverter, or a Inverter/charger. There are various possibilities. Just depends on what Keystone used on your model.

[4kids2dogs&RV]

Originally Posted by Squanto

I see. Thanks.

So, do I likely have a WFCO converter also? I don't have a genset but I do notice the charging is different when I'm on shore power.

@Squanto I also have the 2023 23MLE. You most likely do have a WFCO converter and a Xantrex Freedom X 2000 Inverter mounted to the ceiling of you pass through storage bay close to the MPPT charge controller. I will be searching for my WFCO converter this weekend now that it has cooled off here in Texas. I want to verify my firmware version that @SargeW had problems with.

[Squanto]

Originally Posted by 4kids2dogs&RV

@Squanto I also have the 2023 23MLE. You most likely do have a WFCO converter and a Xantrex Freedom X 2000 Inverter mounted to the ceiling of you pass through storage bay close to the MPPT charge controller. I will be searching for my WFCO converter this weekend now that it has cooled off here in Texas. I want to verify my firmware version that @SargeW had problems with.

I think I've seen it but will look soon myself. I need to empty and repack the basement anyway. The WFCO is just a metal box with a light on it, right?

While I do want it updated to the correct firmware/settings, I think it only affects shore power charging. My problems are more with off-grid living.

Most recently, we left Albuquerque fully charged, arriving and set up a national park boondocking site in Southern Colorado before dark. At night only the 12vdc fridge and whatever the propane furnace uses. Next morning, after sunrise, I turned on inverter long enough to make a pot of coffee and watch a football game. It was a very clear day but the batteries were not fully charged before sundown. The next morning I got a low battery warning just as the coffee maker finished. Again a clear sunny day as we drove to Colorado Springs and set up in a hospital parking lot. Battery completely dead halfway through a coffee pot. Later in the morning I was able to get the pot finished and about 1pm the large slide failed to close however I did get it closed pushing it. Levelers retracted 1 at a time while I was connected to the truck although I don't know if that has any affect. Drove to a full hookup campground and batteries were charged in a short time.

4 kids, 2 dogs, and 2 adults in a 23MLE? That's impressive. Full time? The wife and I are expecting son #1 this month. I'm hoping we can make this work a couple years at least but I think when #2 comes along we'll be looking for larger.

[4kids2dogs&RV]

Originally Posted by Squanto

I think I've seen it but will look soon myself. I need to empty and repack the basement anyway. The WFCO is just a metal box with a light on it, right?



While I do want it updated to the correct firmware/settings, I think it only affects shore power charging. My problems are more with off-grid living.



Most recently, we left Albuquerque fully charged, arriving and set up a national park boondocking site in Southern Colorado before dark. At night only the 12vdc fridge and whatever the propane furnace uses. Next morning, after sunrise, I turned on inverter long enough to make a pot of coffee and watch a football game. It was a very clear day but the batteries were not fully charged before sundown. The next morning I got a low battery warning just as the coffee maker finished. Again a clear sunny day as we drove to Colorado Springs and set up in a hospital parking lot. Battery completely dead halfway through a coffee pot. Later in the morning I was able to get the pot finished and about 1pm the large slide failed to close however I did get it closed pushing it. Levelers retracted 1 at a time while I was connected to the truck although I don't know if that has any affect. Drove to a full hookup campground and batteries were charged in a short time.



4 kids, 2 dogs, and 2 adults in a 23MLE? That's impressive. Full time? The wife and I are expecting son #1 this month. I'm hoping we can make this work a couple years at least but I think when #2 comes along we'll be looking for larger.

Hmm, have you checked to make sure you charge controller has the correct settings for LiFePo batteries? Mine and several others I've read on this forum had incorrect settings from the factory.
May want to lay off the coffee and see how much brewing that pot takes up. Anything with a heating element will discharge the batteries fairly significantly.
I'm at my daughter's house this weekend, got in last night. Batteries were fully charged when we arrived at 11pm, setup watched some TV and went to bed around 2am, at 7:30am batteries were at 84% and solar was already pulling in a few watts. By 10am, i was seeing nearly 200watts and the batteries were at 100%. I didn't make coffee, but the inverter was never powered off and the fridge is on thwe highest off grid setting.
As for the name 4 kids, 2 dogs... I've had that hamdle for nearly 20 years. We're empty nesters now, youngest is almost 22. But we do have a 130 lb Great Pyrenees/ Golden Retriever pup, he's 3 years old and does tend to take up most of the hallway at the top of the steps at night.

[Squanto]

Originally Posted by 4kids2dogs&RV

Hmm, have you checked to make sure you charge controller has the correct settings for LiFePo batteries? Mine and several others I've read on this forum had incorrect settings from the factory.
May want to lay off the coffee and see how much brewing that pot takes up. Anything with a heating element will discharge the batteries fairly significantly.
I'm at my daughter's house this weekend, got in last night. Batteries were fully charged when we arrived at 11pm, setup watched some TV and went to bed around 2am, at 7:30am batteries were at 84% and solar was already pulling in a few watts. By 10am, i was seeing nearly 200watts and the batteries were at 100%. I didn't make coffee, but the inverter was never powered off and the fridge is on thwe highest off grid setting.
As for the name 4 kids, 2 dogs... I've had that hamdle for nearly 20 years. We're empty nesters now, youngest is almost 22. But we do have a 130 lb Great Pyrenees/ Golden Retriever pup, he's 3 years old and does tend to take up most of the hallway at the top of the steps at night.

Next time we're off grid I'll try the off-grid setting on the fridge but even where it's at it doesn't seem to draw too much. Looking at the MPPT 100/30 history I notice that the only time we show over 200W of solar is when we're boondocking and then the highest was 260W. I know I should not be expecting 400W from 2 panels but it seems like it should be more, and more often.

Yes, I found the Victron components set to AGMs and set them correctly to LiFePo4. I had to even reset them once because somehow they reverted to the default AGMs so i recheck that often.

[govols380]

It occurred to me...have you set up your solar charge controller? I didn't find it mentioned.

I'm on the same system and mine, like yours, was not set up for LI batteries. Also, my converter is currently in the same state as yours. Still, when plugged in, charged to about 80% in the morning, my solar has it topped up in a few hours...but not until I set up the solar controller.

(OH, now I see.)