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Old 06-15-2017, 04:38 PM   #41
rhagfo
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XRated, had you loaded the trailer correctly you likely would not have had a sway issue, yep likely a couple hundred pounds over GVWR, it would have been stable and SAFE!
By trying to stay within the arbitrary 10,000# you created an unsafe situation!
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:54 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by kfxgreenie View Post
......... Do you really think the engineers and manufacture de-rate their HD components down to 10,000 lb's just to not be commercial? You made your decision which is a mighty fine one that works for you, ........

Now don't think in any way that i believe any RV can be pulled by a 2500.
Nope Manufacturers would not do something like that at all! That is why you can buy a F350 SRW with a 10,000# GVWR. They just think the new owner wanted to pay a little extra for the F350 badge on the door!
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:56 PM   #43
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Maybe because I'm old but I simply prefer to being legal. My F250 pulled my Cougar fine, but over payload by 200#. So it was off to the dealer to trade a 2016 F250 on a 2016 F350. Very little loss to be legal. Now pulling the Montana I'm still in good shape according to the scale.
After seeing an ad by an ambulance chaser stating if you are involved in an accident with an rv it may be overloaded. Call us out investigators will find out for your civil suit. That prompted a call to my attorney and the decision was made early as he would work with an attorney like that. But then, I'm an old guy!


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x2^^^. Why??? in heaven's name would anyone put themselves in jeopardy of a criminal or civil lawsuit over not having the proper tow vehicle or trailer combo?? For that matter, putting your family or others in jeopardy? Because you can? Because "no one's going to get you"? I just don't get it.


I get it that some folks follow advice from unknowledgeable folks and wind up in a bind. I get it that some folks then can't get out of that situation financially. I don't get anyone knowingly violating the law so they can get a "free" 1000 lbs. of towing weight. Why? Advocating that to someone that doesn't have the expertise/experience to digest it is like dropping a .38 bullet into the cylinder of a revolver, spinning it then giving it to them and telling them to put it to their head and pull the trigger. Dangerous.

If you are breaking the rules/laws towing, my thought is that you keep it to yourself. Don't chime in when a person is honestly trying to find a REAL, LEGAL answer to their situation. Because they ask if it is "doable" doesn't mean, in my mind, that they are looking for every way they can find to break the law. Example: A person could walk out of one of these condos I'm in at the moment, go to Walmart, unholster and shoot the first 10 people he sees. Is it doable? Of course. Is it legal? No. Is it smart? No. Would a prudent person do it? No. Would I advocate that to ANYONE? No!

This will be my last comment on this but I deeply believe that folks that come to this forum asking for legitimate, experienced advice are being misguided by those that espouse ignoring ANY legality regarding towing.....regardless of their personal opinions or actions.
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:25 PM   #44
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XRated, had you loaded the trailer correctly you likely would not have had a sway issue, yep likely a couple hundred pounds over GVWR, it would have been stable and SAFE!
By trying to stay within the arbitrary 10,000# you created an unsafe situation!
If you even had a slight clue of what you are talking about, I might be interested in listening, but you don't, so your comments are not only way off base, but totally wrong.....and that's all I really need to say about this!
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:28 PM   #45
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XRated, had you loaded the trailer correctly you likely would not have had a sway issue, yep likely a couple hundred pounds over GVWR, it would have been stable and SAFE!
By trying to stay within the arbitrary 10,000# you created an unsafe situation!
I think Vern's heavy in the rear because of his track equipment in the garage. It's hard to put a race bike in the bedroom.

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Old 06-15-2017, 05:33 PM   #46
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Chip, I'm afraid I must protest your "heavy in the rear" comment. I seem to resemble that remark.....
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Old 06-15-2017, 05:50 PM   #47
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Chip, I'm afraid I must protest your "heavy in the rear" comment. I seem to resemble that remark.....
Nyuk, Nyuk, Nyuk

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Old 06-15-2017, 06:38 PM   #48
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XRated, had you loaded the trailer correctly you likely would not have had a sway issue, yep likely a couple hundred pounds over GVWR, it would have been stable and SAFE!
By trying to stay within the arbitrary 10,000# you created an unsafe situation!
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I think Vern's heavy in the rear because of his track equipment in the garage. It's hard to put a race bike in the bedroom.

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If you read XRated's entire post you you understand that now that he has the DRW, he is going to load the TH correctly to increase the tongue weight. Had he done that with the F250 he likely would have not had sway, but would have been over GVWR of the TV.
I tow the Copper Canyon with the FW tank full to increase the pin to about 22% to make for a smoother tow. Sure it increases the amount I am over my GVWR, but makes for a smother tow and better stability.
There are times when doing the right thing is really the wrong thing, and the wrong thing is the right thing!
While XRated thinks I don't have a clue, I do. He stated in that post that he intentionally tow his TH with a lite tongue he created a condition that lead to sway. The sway was not because he was towing with a F250, it was due to a lite tongue.

I do find it interesting that most of the "Weight Police" here went from 250/2500 to 350/3500's DRW. This tells me that they also see there is no difference between 250/2500 and 350/3500 SRW!
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:01 PM   #49
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snip...
I do find it interesting that most of the "Weight Police" here went from 250/2500 to 350/3500's DRW. This tells me that they also see there is no difference between 250/2500 and 350/3500 SRW!
Without getting into forum weight police banter, I DO know there is a difference between the 250/2500 and 350/3500 variants. I did consider a SRW 3500, but with the strong likelihood of upgrading to a larger/heavier 5r w/in the the next few years, I wanted to stay ahead of the curve and be ready. Had I already owned a 3500 SRW when we purchased the 5r we now own I likely would have kept is. Given the payload on the 2015 3500 QC SRW SB 4x4 CTD, was about 2000# MORE than the identical 2015 2500, I would have been well within legal and safe limits.
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:13 PM   #50
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I had no idea that life was so very simple. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Now all that said, xrated and I have had several conversations about all of this that have not been posted as they were corespondance just between us. We also have basically the same trailer. I had terrible sway with my camper when I loaded the bike in it. I had a 1500 with the full tow package, same weights as the 2500, so I should have been good? But I wasn't. That's why when I had enough equity in the 1500 I traded it in on a 3500 SRW. I don't need the dually yet so that can wait. But I do have plenty of capcities now and haven't changed a thing in the trailer, but now pulling it is a dream. No sway. No wind problems. No semi problems. No butt pucker problems either any more. Could I have done it with a 2500? Maybe but who cares? For a insignificant amount of dollars I got a truck that has more capacity. I really don't care if it's just on paper as it makes me happy. And if/when trailers start getting weighed, I'm laughing all the way through the scales. That's a whole other level of butt pucker avoidance.

So, back to the OP'S question, can he do it. Probably but for all the reasons listed in these 40+ posts there are reasons to consider not doing it. If he does will he be the first or only person on this forum to tow heavy? Not on your life. But, for those of us who have tried it and failed, we have very truthfully told of our bad experiences. Seems like there are more of those posted on here than those who stick with or change to a 250/2500 from a 350/3500. There's probably a reason for that.





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Old 06-15-2017, 07:43 PM   #51
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I don't know if it was a typo, but the OP asked the same question about a similarly labeled TT. OP, are you wanting a TT or 5r? or are you trying to find something to fit within the limits of an existing TV????

3350bhwe

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Old 06-15-2017, 08:42 PM   #52
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XRated, had you loaded the trailer correctly you likely would not have had a sway issue, yep likely a couple hundred pounds over GVWR, it would have been stable and SAFE!
By trying to stay within the arbitrary 10,000# you created an unsafe situation!
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Originally Posted by ctbruce View Post
I had no idea that life was so very simple. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Now all that said, xrated and I have had several conversations about all of this that have not been posted as they were corespondance just between us. We also have basically the same trailer. I had terrible sway with my camper when I loaded the bike in it. I had a 1500 with the full tow package, same weights as the 2500, so I should have been good? But I wasn't.

So, back to the OP'S question, can he do it. Probably but for all the reasons listed in these 40+ posts there are reasons to consider not doing it. If he does will he be the first or only person on this forum to tow heavy? Not on your life. But, for those of us who have tried it and failed, we have very truthfully told of our bad experiences. Seems like there are more of those posted on here than those who stick with or change to a 250/2500 from a 350/3500. There's probably a reason for that.





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I don't know where you got the idea a 1500 has the same weights as a 2500. Maybe published payload, but comparing a 1500 to a 2500 is apples to oranges!
The build differences between a 1500 and a 2500 are nothing is the same. All of the components of a 1500 are much smaller and lighter than the 2500/3500.
I would like to know the RV dealer that would tell you that a 1500 could tow a 14,000# GVWR TH!
What was the rear axle rating of the 1500, maybe 4,000#? The 2500 had a minimum 6,000# rear axle rating. I would say you were lucklymthat you didn't end up in a ditch with that combination.
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:23 PM   #53
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The sway problem with TT Toyhaulers is nothing new (see link below). The loaded garage takes too much weight off the tongue which in turn can cause sway. Even with a larger tow vehicle if this is the cause of sway the weights shall be shifted if possible in some way to reach a desired tongue weight. See what keystones response was back then? Add a extra water holding tank in the front just too ad appropriate tongue weight.
http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...ht=Fuzion+sway
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:00 PM   #54
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I don't know where you got the idea a 1500 has the same weights as a 2500. Maybe published payload, but comparing a 1500 to a 2500 is apples to oranges!
The build differences between a 1500 and a 2500 are nothing is the same. All of the components of a 1500 are much smaller and lighter than the 2500/3500.
I would like to know the RV dealer that would tell you that a 1500 could tow a 14,000# GVWR TH!
What was the rear axle rating of the 1500, maybe 4,000#? The 2500 had a minimum 6,000# rear axle rating. I would say you were lucklymthat you didn't end up in a ditch with that combination.
Yep I ignored it. Stupidest thing I ever did. And as soon as I could I got a better tool, the right tool for the job. I share this example of my ignorance to say that you've got to be careful with the advice you're putting out there. Some of us dumb heads will take it to extremes because we don't know better, we believe we can do it, and we believe that if others are doing it, it'll be ok for us too.

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Old 06-16-2017, 12:45 AM   #55
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rhagfo wrote:
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While XRated thinks I don't have a clue, I do. He stated in that post that he intentionally tow his TH with a lite tongue he created a condition that lead to sway. The sway was not because he was towing with a F250, it was due to a lite tongue.
If you TRULY understood what was written, then you would know that there was absolutely NOTHING......NOTHING intentional about the light tongue weight that I have with the T.H. setup when the trailer is loaded with everything that is needed to go to the track for a weekend with bikes, fuel, tools, pit stands, weights for the popup, compressor, etc. The light tongue weight is a RESULT of loading the trailer with that "stuff" in the area that is suppose to be for that "stuff". After coming home from the first outing and experiencing white knuckle sway issues, I loaded the trailer up again, just like it is when I use it, and took it across the scales and got three weights. One with the W.D. setup like it is when travelling, the second one with the W.D. unhooked, and the third with just the truck only....all to be able to determine what I have weight wise and how it's distributed. As a result of those numbers, I added an additional approx. 125 lb of weight to the front of the trailer, which was approx. an addditional 1% of tongue weight. The next time out, we had 10-15 MPH winds for most of the trip there, and swaying was still there, although not as bad. On the return home, two days later, there was basically NO wind, and the trailer towed very well, with a minimal amount of sway when the big rigs passed me (driving 65 mph) So, seeing improvement with more weight up front on the tongue brought a better towing situation. I knew that the trailer needed more tongue weight, and I did what I could. I learned the tongue weight lesson about 45 years ago when I first started towing stuff. So now, having added more weight to the front of the trailer to get additional tongue weight, I was now within less than 80 lbs of putting my truck at the 10K GVWR. I CHOSE NOT to go over the GVWR....even by a few hundred pounds, which is the smart, safe, and legal way to deal with it. So my answer was to buy a truck that has the additional GVWR to not only handle, but exceed my needs for this trailer, and most likely any future trailer (TT or 5ver) that I might or might not buy in the future. The next progression is to add more weight to the front of the trailer, which I COULD NOT DO with my F250 and remain within the 10K GVWR. I now have a truck that can very easily handle the extra weight that I will put on it from the extra tongue weight that will be added. All safe, all legal, and no worries about running over the limits of any of the truck capacites, trailer capacities, or any combination thereof.

And a PS.....Don't ever tell me that I didn't load the trailer correctly.....
1. You weren't there to see how it was loaded
2. Making assumptions about something DOESN'T make it factual
3. And all of this coming from someone who ADMITTEDLY runs his rig OVERLOADED! Really?
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Old 06-16-2017, 10:24 AM   #56
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rhagfo wrote:





If you TRULY understood what was written, then you would know that there was absolutely NOTHING......NOTHING intentional about the light tongue weight that I have with the T.H. setup when the trailer is loaded with everything that is needed to go to the track for a weekend with bikes, fuel, tools, pit stands, weights for the popup, compressor, etc. The light tongue weight is a RESULT of loading the trailer with that "stuff" in the area that is suppose to be for that "stuff". After coming home from the first outing and experiencing white knuckle sway issues, I loaded the trailer up again, just like it is when I use it, and took it across the scales and got three weights. One with the W.D. setup like it is when travelling, the second one with the W.D. unhooked, and the third with just the truck only....all to be able to determine what I have weight wise and how it's distributed. As a result of those numbers, I added an additional approx. 125 lb of weight to the front of the trailer, which was approx. an addditional 1% of tongue weight. The next time out, we had 10-15 MPH winds for most of the trip there, and swaying was still there, although not as bad. On the return home, two days later, there was basically NO wind, and the trailer towed very well, with a minimal amount of sway when the big rigs passed me (driving 65 mph) So, seeing improvement with more weight up front on the tongue brought a better towing situation. I knew that the trailer needed more tongue weight, and I did what I could. I learned the tongue weight lesson about 45 years ago when I first started towing stuff. So now, having added more weight to the front of the trailer to get additional tongue weight, I was now within less than 80 lbs of putting my truck at the 10K GVWR. I CHOSE NOT to go over the GVWR....even by a few hundred pounds, which is the smart, safe, and legal way to deal with it. So my answer was to buy a truck that has the additional GVWR to not only handle, but exceed my needs for this trailer, and most likely any future trailer (TT or 5ver) that I might or might not buy in the future. The next progression is to add more weight to the front of the trailer, which I COULD NOT DO with my F250 and remain within the 10K GVWR. I now have a truck that can very easily handle the extra weight that I will put on it from the extra tongue weight that will be added. All safe, all legal, and no worries about running over the limits of any of the truck capacites, trailer capacities, or any combination thereof.



And a PS.....Don't ever tell me that I didn't load the trailer correctly.....

1. You weren't there to see how it was loaded

2. Making assumptions about something DOESN'T make it factual

3. And all of this coming from someone who ADMITTEDLY runs his rig OVERLOADED! Really?


Number 3 says it all.


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Old 06-16-2017, 11:38 AM   #57
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Number 3 says it all.


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Yep it sure does! So many post of 350/3500 looking at air bags or Timbeins to level, when loaded. I have neither in fact last time I looked don't even engauge the upper overload springs by about 3/4".



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Old 06-16-2017, 02:21 PM   #58
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None of that needed on my 350. Certainly not for my 42' Montana,,, some guys just have nothing else to add to their truck and look for toys.
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Old 06-22-2017, 12:09 AM   #59
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This thread is great but I haven't heard anything about how GCWR and/or maximum loaded trailer weight rating plays into any of this.

It seems like most of you are just considering the tongue weight of the trailer and if it is within you TV capability, as measured from the GVWR of your TV minus it's actual weight. For instance, my truck, with me in it, a full tank of gas and hitch, weighs 8700 lbs. Based on my GVWR of 11500 I've got 2800 lbs left. So it seems like a lot of you are saying as long as the tongue weight is below 2800 I'm good!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't seem right. I've been looking at Montanas and Alpines a lot lately, but feel like I need a DRW to tow them safely. I got a friend who tows a Montana with a 2001 350 SRW. Hell, there are two in the campsite right now being towed by a Ram 2500 and another by a 350 SRW just like mine. Makes a guy think... Do I think my truck can pull it? Sure. But it doesn't seem safe to me.

I got 2800 lbs of tongue weight to play with. Which is right at the largest of Montanas DRY pin weight. OK, so I'm good to go right? But loaded for camping these things will weight in the neighborhood of oh lets say 15,000. Putting the tongue weight over for sure. Ford says my maximum loaded trailer rating is 15,700. So that's close. But my GCWR is 23,500. Which is also close.

Do any of you guys tow an Alpine or Montana with a 350 SRW? What consideration do any of you give GCWR and loaded trailer rating?

On a side note, if you know you are over the weight limit, and therefore breaking the law, why do it? Is it really worth the risk? Kind of like drinking and driving if you ask me. You may not get caught, but it's not worth the risks.

Simply put, the risks I'm talking about is you causing a crash with your overloaded rig and harming my family. Not cool. Get a bigger truck or smaller RV. Simple. Everyone be safe!

To be more on topic... I think the OP is over weight and needs a bigger truck to tow safely.
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Old 06-22-2017, 01:59 AM   #60
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Going over ANY of the weight ratings is NOT ok.....period. GVWR, RAWR, FAWR, GCWR, PAYLOAD RATING, HITCH RATING ( both the receiver or the 5ver hitch). And just ONE of those ratings was enough to make me get rid of my F250 and buy a 1 Ton truck, and it wasn't because I didn't know how to load the truck/trailer properly, it was because I wanted the truck that could handle the things that I wanted and needed to take when I traveled.
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