Electrical Issues - Two Questions (to start)

4Papa · 03-18-2024, 02:19 PM

2022 Cougar RDS w/ 400i Solar. System was delivered with 2 Group 27 lead acid batteries which I immediately switched out for a 300AH LiFePo4 battery. First season, all was good with almost all camping with shore power. Last season started getting low voltage warnings from the refer. Two trips to the dealer haven't solved it, despite them switching (although I have no way of confirming) them switching to a heavier gauge wire from frig to converter. I'm not wondering if my WFCO converter is at fault.

Question #1: How do I determine the firmware number to the WFCO converter? Is it only known via the serial number to the unit?

Question #2: Where is the Victron SmartShunt located? It is broadcasting intermitently and I can't find it near the battery or the Victron Smart Controller. From everything I've read it should be the first connection from the negative pole of the battery but it isn't. From the battery the connections (+ and -) go into what I believe is the solar shut-off switch.

That was more than two questions but thanks for any help. I'm scheduled to take the camper back to the dealer/service next week and I'm hesitant to lose weeks (or months) of no camping as they muck around.

Canonman · 03-18-2024, 03:27 PM

WFCO Tech support is really good.
Give them a call with the model number from your unit. Not all converters are set up for lithium batteries. Since yours had the lead acid type installed the conver may have been configured for that type. Some of the newer converters have a switch to change from lead acid battery charging to lithium. If the converter is set up for lead acid it won't fully charge the lithium. Problem with the fridge may just be the batteries are low and not enough voltage reaching the fridge. Wiring shouldn't have been a problem if it worked on shore power. Same 12vdc going to the fridge.
Can't help with the Victron question. New stuff, too complicated.

4Papa · 03-19-2024, 06:43 AM

One would think that with the camper built as a solar unit with 400 watts on the roof, a solar charge controller and shunt would have the switchable option of Lead Acid or Lithium batteries. Hopefully the WFCO unit will have the switch. If it does, one of my issues (self-inflicted), since new, was the WFCO converter was never switched from LA to LiFePo when I changed out the LA batteries.

As a test, I just removed my camper from winter storage and installed the original lead acid batteries. I'm curious to see if I still get the low voltage warnings on my frig both with and without shore power. This is how the unit was delivered from the factory.

That aside, I'm beginning to suspect a mis-wiring issue from the factory as pertains to the solar hookup... specifically the connection to the Victron SmartShunt. The Victron manual specifically states nothing should be between the battery negative terminal and the shunt, otherwise, the battery level indications will not be correct. That's not how Keystone built my unit as they placed a solar shut-off switch directly after the battery. I'm not sure if this is causing a problem as I can't find the shunt as the factory buried it somewhere in the nose/floor of the camper. I may be left with no choice but to begin tearing into the unit to find it. I may also take and post a photo of the associated wiring on the trailer tongue (including the batteries, Giggy switch, and what I believe is, the solar disconnect switch). I'll also post a photo from the interior pass-through that includes the Victron Smart Solar Controller (100/30) and the pre-wire harness box for upgrading the 400i to 600i solar.

GlasNav · 03-19-2024, 01:05 PM

I swapped from lead acid to LiFePo and also upgraded the WFCO converter at the same time in our last off the line 25RDS from mid Aug '21 while the 22s were already rolling out. Swapped the WFCO to the more compatible model after adding two additional legacy Zamp solar panels.

Also, make sure that your Giggy Box switch is in the proper position. WFCO won't charge if it isn't, but the panels will continue to maintain the battery(s).

I chased that oops for a while a year ago! Operator intervention, not a fault in the system.

NH_Bulldog · 03-19-2024, 03:55 PM

As far as batteries, keep in mind that even on solar equipped units, Keystone never included batteries until recently. Even then, the only batteries Keystone supplies are Dragon Fly LiFePO4 (if you shell out the extra $2,700 for them). If you don’t buy the factory supplied lithium batteries, Keystone has no idea what the dealer or end-user will install, so they leave it set to lead-acid battery. Dealers don’t often install anything other than the smallest, least expensive batteries they can get away with. To be fair, even units equipped with lithium from the factory are known to be setup wrong.

SargeW · 03-19-2024, 08:17 PM

Take a look at this thread about my odyssey with my WFCO converter and LI batteries. After the update my batteries were fully functional.
https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...ad.php?t=55756

4Papa · 03-20-2024, 07:35 AM

Anyone know where Keystone might have tucked the converter in the 2022 Cougar 25RDS? Maybe forum member GlasNav, who has an identical, year earlier model (and who has already kindly responded to this thread).

According to WFCO my model charger/converter is in two parts... the distribution panel (#WF-8930/50) and the actual converter. The panel is obvious, under the stove. Not sure if the converter is behind the panel (tight fit) or elsewhere. According to WFCO the converter itself, if Li compatible, should have a model number that ends in either "Li" or "AD". If it doesn't, its LA only.

Thanks for all the replies!

**sourdough** · 03-20-2024, 07:48 AM

I don't have that unit but I would bet if you pull that panel under the stove and look behind it you will find the converter. Below is a link to a video about the trailer. At the 3:56 mark you can see the power panel which I assume is like yours;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71JGVeoxd2A

**JRTJH** · 03-20-2024, 07:54 AM

You may even be able to pull the bottom drawer next to the power panel and see behind it without even having to remove the 4 screws necessary to pull the power center away from it's mount hole. Pull the drawer, use a flash light and you should be able to inspect the area behind the power center and also see the bottom cavity of the power center. One or the other locations is where nearly all converters are mounted in travel trailers.

GlasNav · 03-20-2024, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Papa

Anyone know where Keystone might have tucked the converter in the 2022 Cougar 25RDS? Maybe forum member GlasNav, who has an identical, year earlier model (and who has already kindly responded to this thread).

According to WFCO my model charger/converter is in two parts... the distribution panel (#WF-8930/50) and the actual converter. The panel is obvious, under the stove. Not sure if the converter is behind the panel (tight fit) or elsewhere. According to WFCO the converter itself, if Li compatible, should have a model number that ends in either "Li" or "AD". If it doesn't, its LA only.

Thanks for all the replies!

Remove the cover from your distribution panel, then remove the mounting screws. Carefully pull out the entire distribution panel, observe the slack in the cables and wiring to make sure you don't damage any of the heater ducting while pulling out the "rats nest". You will see the WFCO floor mounted a good reach back thru the opening. Mine had all four screws holding it down, I don't know your age or fitness; even though it is in plain sight, it is a pain in the arse to reach. Have fun!

4Papa · 03-20-2024, 12:55 PM

I pulled the panel out and "Rats nest" is right. I did manage to get my hand inside with my phone camera and took some pictures of the "data plate" containing the model and s/n. Interestingly, the unit is a WFCO model WF-9855-AD... the Auto Detect model. So the good news is Keystone equipped the Cougar with the WFCO automatic "either/or" model, so why the low voltage refer issues (assuming it properly detected the LiFePo battery I installed right after delivery? I'm learning from numerous YouTube videos (including one with a WFCO factory rep) that with the AD models, you actually have to "condition" the unit to recognize the full size of the LiFePo battery. You do this by draining the battery to effectively empty (10%) and allowing the charger/converter to charge it to full. Only then will it know what type of battery it's dealing with. I installed a fully-charged 300Ah battery from the get-go, never giving it a chance to condition itself. Is that what began causing my low voltage refer issues in the second season of use whether it was connected to battery or shore power?

**JRTJH** · 03-20-2024, 04:18 PM

During your "battery changeout" if you managed to "arc or spark" either of the battery cables (it's easy to do and not even realize that you did it), you probably blew the reverse polarity fuses on the converter/charger (or in later power distribution panels, on the 12 volt power fuse panel). If one or both of those fuses are blown, then the converter/charger will not send any charge to your battery. If they are blown, your 300 amp/hr lithium battery has been being charged by the solar system with no help from the converter/charger.

You may have already done this, but check those two "red 40 amp fuses". One of those fuses may be the source/reason why your refrigerator is sending "low voltage alarms".....

4Papa · 03-21-2024, 08:01 AM

Since removing camper from storage last weekend and installing LA batteries, I had no low voltage frig issues while running on batteries only. It's been running on shore power for the last 2-3 days with no issues. Can I assume the converter is doing it's job (no blown fuses)? I don't look forward to wading through the mass of wires, cables and heater ducting to check the fuses and risk disconnecting or shorting something.

**JRTJH** · 03-21-2024, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Papa

Since removing camper from storage last weekend and installing LA batteries, I had no low voltage frig issues while running on batteries only. It's been running on shore power for the last 2-3 days with no issues. Can I assume the converter is doing it's job (no blown fuses)? I don't look forward to wading through the mass of wires, cables and heater ducting to check the fuses and risk disconnecting or shorting something.

No you can't "completely make that assumption"....

Why? When you are running the trailer's 12 VDC system on shore power, the converter/charger provides PRIMARY 12 VDC power to the trailer systems and what's "left over" from the maximum amperage rating of the converter/charger goes to charge the battery bank.

In other words, when you are disconnected from shore power, the battery provides power to run the refrigerator, when you are connected to shore power, the converter provides power to run the refrigerator.

So, running on shore power with the refrigerator operating properly is NOT a "test to confirm the battery is accepting a charge"...

What I would "guess is your issue" is that while the trailer was disconnected from shore power, your solar system was not adequately charging your battery and the refrigerator was using more power than the solar system could provide, resulting in a gradual discharge of the battery until the "low voltage alarm" was triggered. When on shore power, with a WFCO 9855 converter/charger, you have "up to 55 amps of power, so as an example, if you're using 20 amps to run the refrigerator and the rest of the trailer DC systems, then you have 35 amps left to charge the battery IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE SOLAR SYSTEM'S ADDITIONAL CAPACITY.... When you're operating ONLY on solar power, you're still using the 20 amps to run the trailer and what's left over goes to keep the battery charged. If the solar system is providing 15 amps of power (due to sun angle, etc) then you're in a "-5 amps) deficit and eventually that will discharge your battery...

I believe that your solar system is simply not providing enough power to "run everything AND still charge the battery. On shore power, you've got significantly more 12 VDC power and that extra is what is currently allowing your refrigerator to operate properly for an extended time....

It's all about the "amps available" (or more correctly, the watts available) when operating ONLY on solar power vs operating on a 24/7 shore power. Remember, at night, the solar system is a "burden, not a benefit" because you're still powering the bluetooth monitor, draining the battery without adding any charge capacity until tomorrow "when the sun comes up".....

4Papa · 03-21-2024, 02:37 PM

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Today's update: Upon checking on the unit today I found the frig beeping the E-3 (low voltage) code. This is Day 2 after 3 days operating only on solar & battery which threw no error code. Two days on shore power and there's the error code. Interestingly, the error stopped without any intervention from me. So the low voltage condition must be right on the edge.

I checked the converter fuses, as suggested, and both were good. They were 35amp fuses connected to the charger/converter enclosure. Also, interestingly, the internal LED on the charger/converter is green, meaning it's running on the Lithium algorithm. (Green being Li and Blue being Lead Acid). I currently have LA installed. So this much-vaunted "Auto Detect" by WFCO unit is not auto-detecting. I'll place a call to them tomorrow.

NH_Bulldog · 03-21-2024, 03:06 PM

I thought blue was lithium and green was lead acid?

GlasNav · 03-21-2024, 03:28 PM

Sometimes simply taking the Blue Pill makes things easier. But, I'm a Red Pill kind of guy, the heck with wonderland.

**sourdough** · 03-21-2024, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlasNav

Sometimes simply taking the Blue Pill makes things easier. But, I'm a Red Pill kind of guy, the heck with wonderland.

Guess I've got it covered - think I take most colors under the sun between my AM, 4 o'clock and PM pills. Hello? Is that you ma?

4Papa · 03-22-2024, 03:54 AM

Red pill, blue pill, green light, blue light, take ‘em all, what a sight. Let’s settle in for the night.

You’re correct Bulldog, Green is Lead Acid. Seems counterintuitive.

**JRTJH** · 03-22-2024, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Papa

...
You’re correct Bulldog, Green is Lead Acid. Seems counterintuitive.

Also, if I remember correctly, the WFCO AD system only "detects" lithium vs FLA battery type when the converter/charger is in "charge mode". So, if you connect fully charged batteries. lithium or FLA, the converter/charger will remain in the "previous battery type setting" until the connected batteries require a charge. That's when the auto-detect feature is activated. Until the battery voltage drops below the "charge activation level" the auto-detect is inactive.

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