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Old 12-08-2016, 01:35 PM   #1
twvette
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Electric refrigerator in toy hauler ... dry camping/my experience

Figured would share my experience (long winded) as just purchased a Fuzion 420 that has the residential electric only refrigerator (Samsung in mine) which has been very stressful and costly in many ways.

I admit I was a bit rushed to make a purchase and should have done more research, especially on this big of a purchase. Am usually very good at doing this but circumstances kinda prevented the amount of research I usually do. Shame on Keystone and others as it literally should come with a big red warning label to those that plan on doing any dry camping, neverless even be distributed to the market I am in where it is probably 90% dry camping (dunes and forest) given it is a toy hauler after all.

Sales pitch:
Well to no real surprise I got a lot of bad info from multiple sales people at different locations that influenced my decision. I am in technical sales and would have never recommended this product without a lot of warnings as was very clear how I would be using it and other products on lot a better fit for most. Was basically told that the batteries it comes with will get you through the day or night and no real concerns as they are very efficient refrigerators. Did not know until went to pick up that they only gave me one 12V battery! Apparently this is more dictated by the dealership than it is Keystone after speaking with them but still this is rediculous and Keystone should dictate otherwise. There was room for three so assumed that's what was going into it and figured in this high end of a rig that no way Keystone would not leave you hanging with a potential horrible situation one way or another without a WARNING.

Batteries:
As mentioned, I only got one 12V battery at delivery. I got about 3 hours of use from this battery with just fridge on the one time I tried it if curious. The battery area seemed bigger to me than really was so even putting 3 likely was not possible because of the limited room to "get them through the door" and lack of depth to be able to rotate them around to get them in place. In other words, it is more than just measuring the tray size in my case and only real way to see was to go very small or just try to see if can shoehorn them in one way or another. Having basically room for three is also annoying as doesn't help when going 6V golf cart route which is essentially necessary in my opinion. What I am really trying to say is if the rig does not have a HUGE battery location or you are prepared to otherwise get creative putting them in other places too this should be a big WARNING. I ended up going with two high capacity Trojan J305H-AC's rated which gives me about 360 Ah or in other words between 3 to 4 normal golf cart batteries. I was able to do this as I had a little extra height than width so these are just taller batteries. I still had to cut a hole in my basement compartment to slide them in from there as would not go through the normal door and this also required cutting of some metal which was not fun at all.

Solar:
Luckily I had solar on my previous rig and knew I wanted it on this one too so already had it worked in to the deal. However, I should have gone bigger as again was not expecting the electric refrigerator/battery issues. Had 500W system with 30A controller put in and it really helps to not run the generator much during the day but still wish would have gone bigger. The WARNING I would give here is to make sure you figure out how much solar you need in the environment you will likely be in. Lucky for me I am in mostly sunny AZ but gonna be more of a challenge when it comes time to go to the forest instead of dunes.

Inverter:
On the 420, and I assume on all of those who are doing these electric refrigerators, there is a dedicated inverter only for the fridge. It is wired into a switch on mine so that when shore power is connected it will run off the AC source and not need to have the inverter on. I was not in the know of inverters much when purchasing but knew the basics. Should have looked at it closer as later found it is just a 1000W even though it is a large unit and what appears to be a good inverter but time will tell. Not sure but seems would have been better for a 1500W or really a 2000W long term as from what I have seen this fridge pulls about 10A so that means about 1200W needed so thus over capacity and really supposed to have some excess capacity. It is wired somewhat close to battery but could have been much closer and need to take a closer look, but I dont think they used very heavy gauge wire to battery so shame on Keystone. So far so good with this inverter but still seems very suspicious to me especially for long term longevity with what I know now. WARNING, check inverter size and wiring and consider working a bigger one properly installed into the deal. Also, why the heck would they just not do an even bigger inverter and wire in a few of the outlets by TV's etc to be inverted outlets as now this is another thing I need to do as very annoying with a satellite receiver to have to search for signal each time and run generator on this high end of rig. I am really only complaining about this as I was told the TV's were powered by the inverter initially so again mislead.

External Generator:
Even with the good sized solar system and expensive battery bank I can't really make it through the night with the fridge on. I can make it through the day without generator use but that is only due to almost always clear and sunny in AZ and no obstructions in the desert where I am currently testing (wont be the case in the forest) but cannot if even a few hours of overcast. Still, the second the sun is about to go down need to run the generator to make it through the evening hours. Even with running the generator again a couple hours before going to bed and no heater use at night the battery bank is drained just enough that fridge is still on, lights, etc. ok but the onboard Onan 5500 does not have enough juice to turn over. So, luckily I already have a Champion 3100 generator with wireless start so I dont have to go out and jump start it which would be highly annoying. I also leave it connected to the shore power and run it most the time needed to minimize gas use. A Honda 2000 might even be better but not sure if any wireless options on them or similar. WARNING you are going to want to have an external generator likely with wireless start unless have huge battery bank. As a side note, I still have a hassle with this setup in that for some reason my In Command system will not let me start the Onan 5500 onboard generator even when battery is good and have to go outside and start it directly from the switch mounted on it which is very annoying. I think it has something to do with the switching as after doing this once it is good to start/stop from the In Command system but not really sure why it behaves this way.

Starter Battery for onboard Generator:
With expected significant power needed from fridge a dedicated and isolated starter battery should come standard. Since I have an extra battery spot open I will use the one measly battery they gave me for this purpose to turn over the Onan 5500 when not using the external generator. If not going to have an external generator I think this will be close to a necessity especially as batteries age etc. Since mine wont be the same type of battery not going to mess with isolation switches, etc. as I don't ever want them in parallel to my 6V bank or the complication of a similar setup or manual setup in general. So, I think will just do a NOCO 3.5A battery charger (its like a Battery Tender charger) and use it permanently to charge this battery as wont get drained much anyways so the minimal amps and time the generator is on typically should be more than enough to keep this battery topped off.

The Refrigerator itself:
I love it !!!! Very tough to say with what I am going through to power it but they do cool down to temp in say 30 minutes vs. many hours which is very important to me as its kept in storage and want to get the cooler out of the way once get to camp, it holds temp no problems, and this Samsung fridge in general is just very nice with a lot of freezer capacity for ice and similar, and having an ice maker is kinda nice to fill the coolers. I do have to mention that I need to look into why the fridge portion does not seem to be cooling off as much as expected and will get a temp gauge to make sure this is real and not a perception. Maybe even though fridge stays on no problems it is not getting the power needed from inverter as mentioned in the inverter section above? Some have also recommended turning off the ice maker to really help with powering it but that takes away one of the nice features for me albeit the rate at which it produces ice is fairly slow. I might also test if just turning it off at night might work as again it cools down so quickly to recover any small loss and when camping it is always cool to cold temps at night and don't put the heater on too high so might just work out.

I am close to making this a very manageable setup but not sure this is the way many people would want to go. Probably need to add another solar panel or two and look where could stuff a couple more batteries to have no worries. If was purchasing today probably would not go this route but the Fuzion 420 in general makes up for a lot of this hassle for me as just really liking it once get pas this and a few other more expected new rig "issues".

WARNING - Equipped with electric only refrigerator - Dry Camping not recommended without modifications: 750W+ solar (or 20A), eight 6V batteries (500 Ah), 2000W inverter, Generator starter battery and/or external generator
... or just use a Yeti instead LOL
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:08 PM   #2
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Excellent write-up. Not to even mention the extra $$$$ involved in your must have modifications to allow you to boondock. I have been intrigued with the all electric refrigerators, however we are always hooked into shore power!
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:20 PM   #3
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I had no idea. Hard to imagine why they would have an electric only fridge in a toy hauler.
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:23 PM   #4
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We just purchased a 2017 Fuzion 414. It is basically the same rig as yours with a different layout. We were going to go with a 4141 which is a 414 with a Norcold 18CuFt fridge which is a camping gas/electric unit. But I have seen too many horror shows with problems with this unit and people complaining about the high price for replacement so we stuck with the Sammy. Our rig actually came with 2 group 27 batteries. You got screwed on that deal. These rigs cost a lot of money. For dry camping, I'm thinking of getting an old refurbished LP gas only camp refrigerator and keep it out in the toy box. Just a small one. Place it outside or on the deck when needed. It would take the Samsung right out of the picture. Just flip the breaker off that powers the fridge and your good to go. But yes, I share your pain. So far our rig has been a nice unit other than the kitchen slide needing some adjusting. Its binding when you slide it in. Im bringing it in next week.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:36 AM   #5
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Good point on the Norcold gas fridge. In my brief research the potential hassles and costs with them too came up so it was one of the things that eased my mind a little about going the electric route too. However, it is porbably only a case of some having issues whereas with electric anyone who tries and dry camp will experience the pain in one way or another and immediately.

I also had heard of others getting two batteries so complained to dealership and even Keystone. This is when Keystone told me they don't supply batteries and its up to the dealership/deal negotiated at purchase otherwise one is normal which was a bit shocking to me.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:57 AM   #6
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There's a lot of information that an owner needs that is simply not in the Keystone Owner's Manual. Some of it, I suppose just gets too difficult to explain, some of it is probably "too simplistic" to include, some I'd guess Keystone believes we already know and some is left out to keep down arguments.... I'm sure there are many other reasons why the owner's manual is written the way it is.....

Anyway, with a residential style refrigerator, there's an ice maker to consider. That ice maker can "make or break" your battery bank while travelling. I don't believe the owner's manual says to turn the ice maker off when towing, but if you think about it, it's a good idea to disable the ice maker, even if you intend to leave your water pump turned on. Why? The ice maker, when it's "making ice" calls for the refrigerator to "run longer to enable faster ice production" (that "wastes battery power") additionally, the ice maker has a heater element in it. The purpose of the heater element is to "partially melt the ice crescents" so they will fall out of the ice maker and into the bucket. (another battery waster).

So, if you're dry camping and want to conserve battery power, you should turn the ice maker off and raise the temperature of the refrigerator to the "highest acceptable cold level" that you can get away with. It's nice to have -16F to keep the ice cream hard, but if all you're trying to do is keep the milk and lunch meat from spoiling, the refrigerator doesn't have to be "at its coldest setting".... Disabling the ice maker will save a significant amount of battery power, so possibly make ice only when on shore power or buy bagged ice to dump into the bucket ???? Every amp of battery power will help extend the dry camping experience, even if it's a "make do situation" with a residential refrigerator to cope with.....

Just some "food for thought"......
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:15 AM   #7
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I started reading the owners manual and just laughed. For a supposed $130,000 rig you would think deserves a real owner manual specific to your model. Still was not surprising to me.

Thanks for the details on the ice making. I probably will turn mine off and experiment with freezer temperature settings. It cant make ice fast enough to really keep up with needs for the ice chest really anyways. Maybe even turning the freezer portion up will solve my issue with fridge not going as cold as I would like it by giving it more "juice" to work with (still need to investigate this further in general).
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
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I started reading the owners manual and just laughed. For a supposed $130,000 rig you would think deserves a real owner manual specific to your model. Still was not surprising to me.
Owners manuals are ALL generic. Even a $375,000.00 Tiffin Allegro bus has a generic manual.
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Old 12-09-2016, 03:12 PM   #9
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I wish more members would understand what Chuckster said. There are so many models and so many options it would simply be impossible/costly to furnish a specific manual.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:20 PM   #10
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I wish more members would understand what Chuckster said. There are so many models and so many options it would simply be impossible/costly to furnish a specific manual.
If there were specific, detailed manuals, what would we talk about on here?

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Old 12-09-2016, 06:21 PM   #11
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I wish more members would understand what Chuckster said. There are so many models and so many options it would simply be impossible/costly to furnish a specific manual.
Not impossible. Costly. So there you go.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:23 PM   #12
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I started reading the owners manual and just laughed. For a supposed $130,000 rig you would think deserves a real owner manual specific to your model. Still was not surprising to me.

Thanks for the details on the ice making. I probably will turn mine off and experiment with freezer temperature settings. It cant make ice fast enough to really keep up with needs for the ice chest really anyways. Maybe even turning the freezer portion up will solve my issue with fridge not going as cold as I would like it by giving it more "juice" to work with (still need to investigate this further in general).
As a point of reference, my LG refer at home sets the freezer temp at 0F and the fridge temp at 37F.
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Old 12-09-2016, 07:28 PM   #13
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I "get" the reason why specific manuals aren't published. It would be daunting. But, and a big BUT, they could certainly do a much better job at publishing manuals specific to make vs model - Raptor, Fuzion, Montana, Cougar, Etc, and cover the specific components and slide actuators types and anything specific to brand. Yes it cost a bit more, but as already pointed out, these things don't come cheap. Margins are pretty high. On a different note, if manufacturers and RVIA were really serious about quality control, manufacturers would be compelled to insert QA reps on the production line trained and provided by RVIA and payed for by the manufacturers to over see quality. Its done in the automotive world and many off road recreational vehicle manufacturers. There is no reason it couldn't be done in the RV world. Sorry to diverge from the subject matter.
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Old 12-09-2016, 09:00 PM   #14
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Do ALL models of any make have the same style slide? The specific appliances installed will have an owners manual for that specific model.
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:32 AM   #15
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You'd think that with the Internet they'd only have to make one and then share it as a PDF. Talk about a cost cutting measure.....

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Old 05-10-2017, 09:03 AM   #16
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Thanks for your write up! Pretty much spot on. I paid an additional $100 to the dealership to add a second battery! But I'm definitely in the market for a solar system now that would hopefully keep the fridge running through the night when dry camping.

In retrospect, what solar setup would you install (I see you put in 500W/30A)?

Thanks again!

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Old 05-10-2017, 10:47 AM   #17
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You'd think that with the Internet they'd only have to make one and then share it as a PDF. Talk about a cost cutting measure.....

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Many companies have gone this route on some of their products.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:40 AM   #18
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When I think of a toy hauler my mind thinks about loading up the off road bikes and hitting the mountains in a secluded spot. The last thing that I would be wanting to think about is finding a tree to plug into so that my fridge will run. That or setting up all the solar that won't catch much sun in the shade.
I can never understand why they would install a fridge in these units that don't run off LP? Like really what were they thinking?
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Old 06-09-2017, 08:12 PM   #19
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Which is why....you can't do enough homework before you buy your rig, especially if it's your first camper. I did mine for almost two years, pricing, options, pros cons of everything. Ended up with my FZ371, thought I had it all figured out ,but, at the 11th hour I saw it was the same as the V3605 I was in love with, but with better interior upgrade options, better tires, etc. for the same price, actually a little less after shopping dealers......As I've said before, I would not have a residential refer in an rv, unless you plan to "never" be without shore power. In a national emergency or a major power outage, I want my lp frig......
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:13 PM   #20
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Which is why....you can't do enough homework before you buy your rig, especially if it's your first camper. I did mine for almost two years, pricing, options, pros cons of everything. Ended up with my FZ371, thought I had it all figured out ,but, at the 11th hour I saw it was the same as the V3605 I was in love with, but with better interior upgrade options, better tires, etc. for the same price, actually a little less after shopping dealers......As I've said before, I would not have a residential refer in an rv, unless you plan to "never" be without shore power. In a national emergency or a major power outage, I want my lp frig......
Good to hear that you did all of your research and found a trailer that you'll be happy with for years. It's pretty sad to hear a person who impulse buys and they're not happy with what they've bought and the next five years of payments.
And yes let's say there was an earthquake, no power or anything my first thoughts would to bug out with the trailer. It would be tough not having a fridge. Doable but tough as it's not like you could hit a store everyday for some steaks as they wouldn't have meat either with no power.
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