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Old 09-29-2018, 05:42 AM   #21
Javi
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I'm thinking that I'd want to weigh the trailer axles and check the limits of the tires, wheels and axles.

The result of moving the connection forward like this will increase the load on the axles and decrease the load on the pin.

This is the opposite of what the manufacturers are doing to make 5th wheels 1/2 ton towable by moving the axles forward and magnifying the swing of the trailer by increasing the rear overhang.

It's about the pivot point of the seesaw.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:03 AM   #22
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All you have to do to confirm it's not overloaded is to look at the space between the rear tire and wheel. It only sets down about an inch or less with the whole rig loaded for camping.
AHHH NO !!!! I'm not making any accusations about you, but let's face it, there are far too many "internet shysters" who would post a photo like you did, use air bags to lift the truck so they can "demonstrate no suspension sag"... Photos can be illustrative of both good things and bad things.

As you said, this is NOT a project for a weekend warrior and it's not something a "novice welder" should attempt. The highways are too crowded with people who shouldn't be exposed to a "trial and error towing attempt" by someone who has no clue what they're doing.

Again, I'm not making any accusations about you or your motives for posting, just saying this is NOT something most people can or should try to do to solve their poor towing problems.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:19 AM   #23
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It's been to the CAT scales and it adds a little over 700 lbs to the rear axes about 100 lbs to front axel of the empty TV and about 350 lbs to the trailer axels. According to the CAT scales and sticker on the TT, the trailer has about 1,600 lbs left. The better wight distribution of this setup vs the artificial weight distribution of a ProPride, Hensely, or some other WD hitch would actually allow me to haul more stuff. I don't have to be so picky about how the wife loads stuff in the TT. The tongue-weight with the ProPride hitch was about 1,200 lbs on rear axel and a negative 75 lbs on the front axel of the TV with the 1,400 lb WD bars pulled up as tight as I could. It was 350 lbs less on the trailer, but because the TT had to loaded toward the front to make it behave, I couldn't add more load without making the tongue-weight crazy.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:36 AM   #24
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AHHH NO !!!! I'm not making any accusations about you, but let's face it, there are far too many "internet shysters" who would post a photo like you did, use air bags to lift the truck so they can "demonstrate no suspension sag"... Photos can be illustrative of both good things and bad things.

As you said, this is NOT a project for a weekend warrior and it's not something a "novice welder" should attempt. The highways are too crowded with people who shouldn't be exposed to a "trial and error towing attempt" by someone who has no clue what they're doing.

Again, I'm not making any accusations about you or your motives for posting, just saying this is NOT something most people can or should try to do to solve their poor towing problems.
I don't have any motives other than to share, what I think is a neat concept that I had never seen before and it eliminates and performs 10X better than, in my opinion, the overhyped ProPride hitch I used to use to pull this rig. It has no air bags and is stone stock except for the E rated tires, I won't tow without them. If you have ever driven a semi, you would know how a trailer should handle. I drove one cross country in my younger days over a million miles. This is the first rig that I've driven that handles like I'm used to, including my 5er pulled by a F350 dually. The fiver handles good, but is top heavy. About anything will pull well at 50-55 mph. The way to see how it handles is run it up past 80 and see what happens. I could run all day at that speed with this rig, it has S rated tires and handles that well.
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:59 AM   #25
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I would be interested in seeing a picture of the yellow sticker... OP claims he has a 2500 lb payload, but the highest payload we have ever heard of on here from a half ton is around 2060 to 2160 lbs. And this truck is 4WD, so will definitely be less than that. I have doubts that his payload is 2500 lbs. That's F250 range.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:23 AM   #26
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I would be interested in seeing a picture of the yellow sticker... OP claims he has a 2500 lb payload, but the highest payload we have ever heard of on here from a half ton is around 2060 to 2160 lbs. And this truck is 4WD, so will definitely be less than that. I have doubts that his payload is 2500 lbs. That's F250 range.
You're missing the point. Here is a concept that improves TT handling and stability dramatically with a simplistic concept that horse trailer people have known for decades. So, lets cast doubt. If you don't believe it just don't participate. Let's say the payload is just l,000 lbs. It's still not overloading the TV. As for trying to prove anything, Im not Brett Kavanaugh. Im just a guy who mistakenly thought you guys would like to see something different. You are free to disbelieve anything you like.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:43 AM   #27
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Horse trailer frames are NOT designed, built, stressed or used like travel trailers. Their frames, axle positioning and tongue/pin weights are engineered "from the drawing phase" with different capacities and different use as critical factors for how they are built and used.

In most travel trailers there is very VERY little reserve capacity on axles, spring hangers, tires, wheels, frame components and A-frame capacity. What I'm saying is that most travel trailers are not constructed with axles or frames designed so that the towing relationship can be altered significantly and maintain a reliable safety factor for the components.

As an example, take a 9,500 pound GVW trailer. Typically that trailer will have 4400 pound axles under it. Those axles will be positioned on the frame to provide for the tongue to carry 1000 pounds of the trailer GVW. The wheels and tires on those axles will be rated to carry barely more than the 4400 pounds and the spring hangers will be constructed to support that weight. Adding a 6' extension on the front of the trailer ball coupler (A-frame) will lever much of that weight back to the axles causing them to carry more than they are designed to carry. That puts the trailer axles in an overloaded condition, adds additional weight to "already under sized tires" and increases the stress on the spring hangers, shackles and springs. Is it too much? Is it OK? Is it going to make towing unsafe?

Horse trailers have axles moved much further to the rear and they are significantly larger capacity than Travel trailers which "balance the trailer weight, increasing the ability to tow with smaller/lighter vehicles. Look around, how many "4 Horse with sleeping area trailers" do you see being towed by a half ton truck? Even empty, they present a sizeable load for that size tow vehicle.

I'm not saying that your "home-made rig" is unsafe. I'm saying that it certainly needs much more "engineering thought" than just "a CAT scale" shows the weight on the front and rear wheels of the tow vehicle don't overload my truck" kind of assessment.

I guess another way to state it is: Travel trailers are built with "minimally sized components" Shifting the weight from the tongue to the axles can, in many situations, make the trailer unsafe and towing that kind of rig down the highway at 80 MPH "because it feels stable" is just as likely to be unsafe as towing that same trailer down the highway at 80 MPH with an extra 1000 pounds over the GVW.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:50 AM   #28
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Someone might make something that is dangerous and get someone hurt or killed and I don't want the liability.
I would only take it to an engineering / fabricator shop, not DIY.

And is not hard to post a PDF somewhere completely untraceable and link to it anonymously to eliminate liability.

So never mind you personally if you're not willing, putting it out there for the next person, please make decent annotated drawings or at least clear photos so you're sharing more than just an idea.

Thanks in advance
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:52 AM   #29
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Okay... From an engineering standpoint your contraption is an interesting concept.

That being said... to compare this to a well designed and engineered gooseneck trailer is at the best reckless...

Not to mention that this would most likely be illegal in many states and require re-registering it with professional inspection for safety and usability.. to obtain licensing.
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:14 AM   #30
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Horse trailer frames are NOT designed, built, stressed or used like travel trailers. Their frames, axle positioning and tongue/pin weights are engineered "from the drawing phase" with different capacities and different use as criticafactors for how they are built and used.

In most travel trailers there is very VERY little reserve capacity on axles, spring hangers, tires, wheels, frame components and A-frame capacity. What I'm saying is that most travel trailers are not constructed with axles or frames designed so that the towing relationship can be altered significantly and maintain a reliable safety factor for the components.

As an example, take a 9,500 pound GVW trailer. Typically that trailer will have 4400 pound axles under it. Those axles will be positioned on the frame to provide for the tongue to carry 1000 pounds of the trailer GVW. The wheels and tires on those axles will be rated to carry barely more than the 4400 pounds and the spring hangers will be constructed to support that weight. Adding a 6' extension on the front of the trailer ball coupler (A-frame) will lever much of that weight back to the axles causing them to carry more than they are designed to carry. That puts the trailer axles in an overloaded condition, adds additional weight to "already under sized tires" and increases the stress on the spring hangers, shackles and springs. Is it too much? Is it OK? Is it going to make towing unsafe?

Horse trailers have axles moved much further to the rear and they are significantly larger capacity than Travel trailers which "balance the trailer weight, increasing the ability to tow with smaller/lighter vehicles. Look around, how many "4 Horse with sleeping area trailers" do you see being towed by a half ton truck? Even empty, they present a sizeable load for that size tow vehicle.

I'm not saying that your "home-made rig" is unsafe. I'm saying that it certainly needs much more "engineering thought" than just "a CAT scale" shows the weight on the front and rear wheels of the tow vehicle don't overload my truck" kind of assessment.

I guess another way to state it is: Travel trailers are built with "minimally sized components" Shifting the weight from the tongue to the axles can, in many situations, make the trailer unsafe and towing that kind of rig down the highway at 80 MPH "because it feels stable" is just as likely to be unsafe as towing that same trailer down the highway at 80 MPH with an extra 1000 pounds over the GVW.
I've built horse trailers with living quarters over 20 years professionally, some over 40' long. How many have you made? This rig is engineered and reinforced to those industry standards which far surpass RV standards because you're hauling a live load and it's not legal to ride in a TT in most states. The entire conversion added just 300 lbs. The ProPride hitch and stinger weighed 250. I've towed this rig over 1000 miles with no stress problems. The tires are 225/75-15 S speed rated and load range D on two 5k dexter axels. which will support 10K. Like I mentioned earlier, even if it still had stock axels, there would be 1600 lb additional capacity. In short, you believe a person who could engineer a conversion such as this isn't smart enough to think of the axels?
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:54 AM   #31
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I've built horse trailers with living quarters over 20 years professionally, some over 40' long. How many have you made? This rig is engineered and reinforced to those industry standards which far surpass RV standards because you're hauling a live load and it's not legal to ride in a TT in most states. The entire conversion added just 300 lbs. The ProPride hitch and stinger weighed 250. I've towed this rig over 1000 miles with no stress problems. The tires are 225/75-15 S speed rated and load range D on two 5k dexter axels. which will support 10K. Like I mentioned earlier, even if it still had stock axels, there would be 1600 lb additional capacity. In short, you believe a person who could engineer a conversion such as this isn't smart enough to think of the axels?
This has become a "Days of Our Lives" soap opera with information developing with each subsequent post. Now, you've indicated you built trailers professionally for over 20 years, you've added larger axles to your travel trailer. You've indicated you have 225/75-15 8 ply tires with an "S speed rating. Would that mean they are not ST tires? I've not seen everything, but I've never seen an 8 ply rated, ST tire with a speed rating of 112 MPH.

By your admissions in "serial posting" you've indicated that it's not what you posted in your original post, A simple addition to make towing more stable. It's become a major rework of trailer suspension, adding a gooseneck adapter, installing a gooseneck hitch in the truck and changing to load range E tires on the tow vehicle. What started as a "simple hitch alternative" has now become much more than just a simple bolt on adapter.

And to answer your question, No, I've NEVER built any trailer and wouldn't expect that most of the readers of this forum who are following with interest, have that kind of experience. So, for most of us to "bite off that kind of chaw" would be vastly beyond capability, experience or ability.

It almost sounds like this has become "marketing research" for a "highly specialized" concept in trailer towing.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:23 AM   #32
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Okay... From an engineering standpoint your contraption is an interesting concept.

That being said... to compare this to a well designed and engineered gooseneck trailer is at the best reckless...

Not to mention that this would most likely be illegal in many states and require re-registering it with professional inspection for safety and usability.. to obtain licensing.
Sorry, but this thing just works. The old guy in the video, (did you watch the video?)was right. Talking it down will not prevent the concept from working. My Grandfather always told me "can't never could do anything." Many on these forums talk, but seldom do. I'm a doer. I saw an interesting concept and didn't talk it to death. I just watched the video of the concept, did the math, built a prototype, tested it, and was thankful the old guy came up with a great idea. Now I have a very pleasant towing TT where I had a $30,000 piece of crap that was a nightmare to take an any kind of significant trip. Now that there are two successful prototypes on the road, I thought I would pass on that this is a great concept that works and is perfectly safe. It's this kind of liberal, narrow minded thinking that would have kept us in horse and buggies or the Wright Brothers on the ground.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:34 AM   #33
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Now that you mention you have already replaced the axles with heavier ones to account for the additional weight, and upgraded tires and other suspension components accordingly, and have been doing this for a long time, I wanted to say kudos for finding something that works for your problem. Your welding/fabricating skills appear to be top notch. I am just glad my trailer already tows perfectly and I don't need to go down this road!

It does make me wonder if you had some sort of factory defect on your rig, as the towing experience should not be what your experienced. Anyway, I am glad to see you found a solution for your problem. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:51 AM   #34
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This has become a "Days of Our Lives" soap opera with information developing with each subsequent post. Now, you've indicated you built trailers professionally for over 20 years, you've added larger axles to your travel trailer. You've indicated you have 225/75-15 8 ply tires with an "S speed rating. Would that mean they are not ST tires? I've not seen everything, but I've never seen an 8 ply rated, ST tire with a speed rating of 112 MPH.

By your admissions in "serial posting" you've indicated that it's not what you posted in your original post, A simple addition to make towing more stable. It's become a major rework of trailer suspension, adding a gooseneck adapter, installing a gooseneck hitch in the truck and changing to load range E tires on the tow vehicle. What started as a "simple hitch alternative" has now become much more than just a simple bolt on adapter.

And to answer your question, No, I've NEVER built any trailer and wouldn't expect that most of the readers of this forum who are following with interest, have that kind of experience. So, for most of us to "bite off that kind of chaw" would be vastly beyond capability, experience or ability.

It almost sounds like this has become "marketing research" for a "highly specialized" concept in trailer towing.
No, these are not ST tires. They are heavy truck tires. Most of the modifications were before I came up with this solution to get the 308BHS to tow the way I thought it should. I tried everything from $3000 PP projection hitch to adding shocks, to upgrading the entire suspension and having it professionally aligned. It was recommended I get a larger TV, so I bought a new F350 dually, which helped some but still fell short. No matter what I tried I could not get it to meet my towing expectations, which may be higher than the average guy. I mentioned that drove a cross-country semi for a while and that became my standard for moving long distances over the road as fast as possible in every kind on condition possible. Evidently TTs are don't like these types of demands. Now It tows better than my 5er because it's not as top-heavy and it tows the same with the F150 as the F350.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:57 AM   #35
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Sorry, but this thing just works. The old guy in the video, (did you watch the video?)was right. Talking it down will not prevent the concept from working. My Grandfather always told me "can't never could do anything." Many on these forums talk, but seldom do. I'm a doer. I saw an interesting concept and didn't talk it to death. I just watched the video of the concept, did the math, built a prototype, tested it, and was thankful the old guy came up with a great idea. Now I have a very pleasant towing TT where I had a $30,000 piece of crap that was a nightmare to take an any kind of significant trip. Now that there are two successful prototypes on the road, I thought I would pass on that this is a great concept that works and is perfectly safe. It's this kind of liberal, narrow minded thinking that would have kept us in horse and buggies or the Wright Brothers on the ground.
Like I said, interesting concept... But as a 70 year old design engineer in a metal job shop for the past 20 or so years it is also my job to address the obvious when confronted with such interesting concepts..

I see on average a couple of dozen of these interesting concepts a month and rarely is my input welcome, just as it isn't in this case... The difference is when I interject my reservations on these kind of things... I save my employers a lot of money.. and often legal trouble..

My best wishes to you
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Old 09-29-2018, 12:51 PM   #36
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"can't never could do anything." Many on these forums talk, but seldom do.
Ain't that the truth. Just look at the Andersen 5th Hitch. How many thousands sold and in use and very very minimal problems, but the internet will lead you to believe someone or something (your RV) will die.

Keep up the good work, glad you thought outside the box and made it work for you!
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Old 09-29-2018, 01:41 PM   #37
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Ain't that the truth. Just look at the Andersen 5th Hitch. How many thousands sold and in use and very very minimal problems, but the internet will lead you to believe someone or something (your RV) will die.

Keep up the good work, glad you thought outside the box and made it work for you!
Finally, a voice of sanity in a sea of confusion. Thanks for the kind words.
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Old 09-29-2018, 01:56 PM   #38
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I guess another way to state it is: Travel trailers are built with "minimally sized components" Shifting the weight from the tongue to the axles can, in many situations, make the trailer unsafe and towing that kind of rig down the highway at 80 MPH "because it feels stable" is just as likely to be unsafe as towing that same trailer down the highway at 80 MPH with an extra 1000 pounds over the GVW.
I have to say that the 2019 Laredo 225MK we recently purchased maybe an exception regarding your statement "are built with "minually sized components"

This little guys has 4400 axles and GAWR with a GVWR of 8000 pounds. It has just under 2K for CC. The weight of the fresh water tank and hot water tank are already included in the dry weight number.

Here are the scale weights. We are load heavy for the fall commute to our winter park model in Arizona.

Front axle TV 4850 (minus about 300 lbs vs empty), drivers 5350, trailer 6450 for 16650 combined. Or a little less than 8K lighter than our 5th wheel. Appears I have the little guy loaded close to it's 8k GVWR
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Old 09-29-2018, 02:59 PM   #39
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I have to say that the 2019 Laredo 225MK we recently purchased maybe an exception regarding your statement "are built with "minually sized components"
RVIA standards changed in 2018 effective with 2019 models. Your trailer was built using the new requirements for "safety margins" above those which were required previously. We have some members who own 35'6" travel trailers with axle ratings of 3500 pounds, 205 75R14 LRC tires rated at 1760 (that's 3520 pounds of tire rating on a 3500 pound axle) and GVW's of 7600 pounds (that's requiring loading the tongue at 600+ pounds just to prevent overloading the axles and tires at GVW). As you can see, with that trailer, there is no "margin for safety".

My 2014 Cougar, like your 2019 Laredo has a significant "safety margin" in axle capacity, tire capacity, GVW and payload. It's not that way with many of the "prior to current year" Keystone models, including the OP's Bullet 308BHS. That's the reason for my concern about his "gooseneck conversion". After commenting that he's replaced the axles, tires and added shocks to his suspension, he may well be able to shift the weight to his axles. Prior to those modifications, he'd have likely been well over the ratings for his "ultra-light axles and tires".

Hopefully, those days of "minimal margins" are long gone and the new RVIA standards will continue to provide consumers with sufficient safety margins.
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Old 09-30-2018, 07:44 AM   #40
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I own the Bullet 308BHS and it was definitely built for the "value" customer. I'm in the process right now of overhauling and upgrading my axles and suspension components. It's not cheap but after a broken leaf spring mishap on Labor day weekend, I'm mitigating the risk of another suspension or axle failure.

If I could do it all over again, I probably would reconsider my model choice as I was a very "wet behind the ears" as a new RV owner at the time of purchase. My wife and and I, (unfortunately), love our floor plan so we decided it would be cheaper to upgrade the components than outright sell the coach and by new again. Plus, the Hensley hitch paired to our Ram Megacab handles this trailer magnificently.

When towing modifications (as the OP has done) are fabricated to a pull behind, the increased stresses / lever arm doesn't just affect suspension and axle components but the frame too. As we all agree there (generally speaking) isn't much reserve in OEM tires, axles, springs, and suspension hardware, I'm sure this carries over to the frame itself. I'm reminded of this every time I set my stabilizer jacks a little too tight (the bathroom door and storage compartment doors don't close properly).
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