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Old 09-18-2016, 01:58 PM   #1
AussieCanadian
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Floor Flex - Normal or Not?

Hi all,

We recently upgraded from a Passport Ultra Lite travel trailer to a 2016 Hideout 295BHS fifth wheel. Love the unit so far.... But...

We've camped around 20 nights in the new unit already, and have noticed that the floor around the kitchen area flexes a lot more than our Passport did. The 295BHS does have a 2nd (kitchen) grey waste water tank around the area where we notice the flexing, but wondering if other have experienced similar floor flexing concerns? Is this normal?

We are still under warranty, and right now I don't suspect water damage is the cause as I have checked pipes etc where I can access them. The floor doesn't feel soft - but does flex a lot (I can see it easily when my wife walks around - and she is only 140lb!).

The sub floor decking is 5/8" OSB with linoleum on top. Any thoughts or similar experiences with flooring? Is flexing normal or is this an issue?? I'm concerned a little with how durable the floor will be over time...

Thanks in advance!
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Old 09-18-2016, 03:38 PM   #2
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Every keystone product that we have owned has had some floor flex. I think it is normal. But that just my opinion.
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Old 09-18-2016, 04:29 PM   #3
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The main floor joists in the Passport are welded aluminum. The main floor joists in the Hideout are 2x3 Spruce. As such, the floor will seem more "flexible" when walking on it. We noticed significantly more flex in the floor of our Springdale which is built much like the Hideout than we do in our Cougar.
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Old 09-18-2016, 04:53 PM   #4
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AussieCanadian, Howdy;

Yep, My floor has flex to itas well and it's a 2008 year model.
There was an intresting observation mentioned in this past Saturdays
RV Travel Newsletter. Right at the top in Chuck's editorial. Here's the paragraph I saw.

"Lightweight towables are everywhere. Take your pick. They look great. But
be warned — corners are cut to save weight. So examine them closely. At
least some Keystone models, I’m told, have floors made of material that is
essentially thick cardboard. A water leak into this material could cost lotsa
dinero to fix." copied from RV Travel Newsletter Issue 760

Just a heads-up to folks looking for or having purchased the newer
Lite-weights .....

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Old 09-18-2016, 06:17 PM   #5
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My 2011 cougar 322qbs has the same floor flex in the same area you are describing. I also have two heat registers in that area and have assumed it was because of the galley tank and the added cuts in the floor for the registers. I maybe wrong also but when I took the register covers off I did not notice any damage to my decking.
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Old 09-18-2016, 07:19 PM   #6
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Thanks for all the responses so far.

Seems, at least based off the replies so far that some floor flex would be considered normal. That said, it does make sense that the Aluminum frame floor is more rigid, and doesn't flex as much... I guess it's one of the cost factors and why our Hideout is considered entry level.

Anyways, hopefully it (wood joists for floor framing) is not an issue in terms of durability? I'm wondering whether it's worth dropping the enclosed underbelly to see if I could add additional support (perhaps some cross members to bolster the framing in the subfloor?

... Perhaps I'll just wait and see how it holds up after next season...
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Old 09-19-2016, 04:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieCanadian View Post
Thanks for all the responses so far.

Seems, at least based off the replies so far that some floor flex would be considered normal. That said, it does make sense that the Aluminum frame floor is more rigid, and doesn't flex as much... I guess it's one of the cost factors and why our Hideout is considered entry level.

Anyways, hopefully it (wood joists for floor framing) is not an issue in terms of durability? I'm wondering whether it's worth dropping the enclosed underbelly to see if I could add additional support (perhaps some cross members to bolster the framing in the subfloor?

... Perhaps I'll just wait and see how it holds up after next season...
You'll find that the construction/weatherproofing is very different than your previous trailer. First, rather than coroplast, you'll probably find DARCO, a nylon reinforced, polyethelene fabric as the underlayer (think: blue plastic tarp). Inside that DARCO is your insulation, plumbing, holding tanks, heat ducting and electrical systems. Trying to add crossmembers while "keeping those systems in place" will be a challenge. Reinstalling the DARCO, while not "rocket science" will also be a challenge. The way your RV was built gave the factory a distinct advantage, they installed the DARCO while the trailer frame was upside down, then rolled the frame over, wrapped the DARCO over the sides and installed the walls on top of that "wrap". Now, the only way you'll be able to access the "innerds" is to cut the DARCO. I'd suggest that if you're not having any issues, it's probably not worth cutting your "first line of defense against water intrusion" just to "see if something might help".....

If you're really concerned, talk with your dealer and get their advice. I'd urge against just "tearing into it" without knowing what's involved with putting it back together......
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Old 09-19-2016, 10:57 AM   #8
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Thanks John, for your wisdom and very sound advice. I think you're correct - "tearing into it" just to look and see if anything could be done is a very risky move and could result in creating new problems.

As suggested, I'll consult with my dealer first, however I suspect their response will be that "the flex is normal" (my experience with this dealer is that their response tends to drive away any suggestion that it could be warranty work)...

Interestingly, on the Hideout Fifth Wheels, the upper (bathroom/bedroom) subfloor structure is welded aluminum framed (I can see the subfloor from the pass through storage), but the main living area is, as you've pointed out - 2x3 spruce-framed.

As for whether this is an issue, right now it seems fine, but I am concerned about long-term durability of a flooring which flexes that much. I'm not a small guy (250lb) so with time, I am concerned the floor will sag and/or is not up to the task of use (we camp around 50-60 nights per year, so consider ourselves "heavy" users). I guess it's something we should have considered before buying an entry-level unit, especially after our Passport which was quite reliable with the same 50-60 nights usage.
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Old 09-19-2016, 01:58 PM   #9
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I wouldn't worry too much about the "future issues" because it's a "wooden floor" rather than "aluminum floor". If you consider that prior to about 1985, every trailer (except the aircraft grade ones) was wood framed, wood floors and wood roofing. There are a lot of those (now 30+ year old) trailers still on the road. It's more a matter of maintenance and staying ahead of problems than it is the wood/aluminum issue. Granted, if it gets wet, wood will cause problems faster, but if it stays dry, it's likely to be a very similar lifespan to aluminum.

I'd just keep an eye on things, watch for any signs of water intrusion along the windows and edges of the slide and enjoy the trailer. After every rain, if you're in and out of the trailer, I'd check the carpet around the slide to be sure it's dry, and once you've got the background to know, you'll probably stop checking it except during the spring "get things ready" and the fall "winter maintenance"....

Hideout is an "entry level" trailer, as you stated, but that certainly doesn't mean it's any less durable than the rest of the Keystone brands. Our Springdale construction was very similar to your Hideout. We never had any issues and would still have it were it not for that tree that fell on it and made an accordion of things that weren't supposed to look like a pin cushion....
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Old 09-22-2016, 10:11 AM   #10
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Thanks very much again John. You've put my mind at ease about the "entry level" factor. I'm very conscious about checking for water entry after rain, so will continue to do that for sure.

I wonder whether the Springdale and Hideout are actually the same in terms of construction? I checked the Keystone site, and it notes that the Springdale flooring construction is 2x3" joists ,12" OC, but the Hideout doesn't note any details about structural spacing of the joists, just that the floor is "seemless 5/8" decking".

Anyway, enough worrying about it - off to enjoy our new fifth wheel
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Old 09-22-2016, 04:56 PM   #11
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Our 2011 sprinter has the same issue. Keystone said it is Normal. Now the darn thing creaks terribly and I can feel OSB raising up in one place. Gotta love it.

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Old 09-23-2016, 04:12 AM   #12
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Floor Flex

I had an Avalanche, which is not a entry level 5th. wheel, and it had considerable floor flex around the kitchen counter. I spoke with a representation of Keystone at the Tampa RV show and he told me they were aware of this issue and would either pay for the repair fully or help with the cost since the unit was out of warranty. Their fix was to stuff the floor with bubble wrap. even Camping World had to laugh at that one. I no longer own an Avalanche.
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Old 09-24-2016, 06:48 AM   #13
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Thanks Turbodog.

Although your situation doesn't sound great, it confirms for me that this isn't an "entry level only" issue. Under the kitchen area there is a fresh water tank as well as the 2nd grey water tank, so I suspect the subfloor has been cutaway to some extent to fit both the tanks in (rather than slot them between the joists, they may have cut them).

I am still going to talk to my dealer, however I very much doubt they will do anything under warranty. It's just one item on my list that I will address with them before my warranty is up
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Old 03-05-2017, 08:04 PM   #14
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John, I just joined this evening looking for answers to our soft floor problem.
You seem very knowledgeable about camper construction and we have exactly the same year and model that you own. The heat register located near where the sofa and dining booth meet has always been a little soft right by the register so we make a point to try to avoid the area. Now, and quite suddenly, we have a large soft spot about 1 1/2 ft wide by 4 ft long where that register is located. I've seen posters mention possible support cuts due to the register or soft spots located above a tank. We bought new at Camping World and bought the extended warranty but the dealership says it is not covered. Any insights as to what the problem would be? Thanks for any help.
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Old 03-06-2017, 07:38 AM   #15
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Bonrjen,

The floor joists in your trailer run front to back (not side to side) and the floor "sandwich" is mounted above that. The heat duct that runs from the front register to the back register (in the main cabin) is partly built into that "sandwich". That means there is not the full strength of the laminated floor above the heat duct. Essentially, the floor, from top to bottom, is two layers of 1/8" luan, 1.5" Styrofoam and the bottom is a single sheet of 1/8" luan. So, between the two floor joists where the heat duct is located, you're walking on a 1/4" of "cheap plywood" with a thin aluminum duct under it. It will flex, it will break if you jump on it and it will become a "soft spot" if it gets wet.

As for the other parts of the floor "outside the heat duct run", that lamination is usually reliable, but relies on the Styrofoam for much of its strength, so if the foam cracks or if the structure "delaminates", you'll also get soft spots that form in that area of damaged floor.

I don't have any "great ideas" on how to repair that type of structure. My only "bad idea" (and it's not a good one) is to pull the vinyl/carpet and see what the floor looks like. You may find damaged luan, if not, then I'd recommend talking to a knowledgeable RV tech (like Chuckster57) for more ideas.

Good Luck,
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