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Old 06-14-2017, 09:19 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
It's the same with the 2015 Ford F250/350 rear bearings. Different part numbers between the two truck models.



Also, with respect to Ford's F250/350 argument (may or may not apply to other brands) starting in 2017, the transmission in the F250 gas engine truck has a "lighter duty rating" with completely different shift patterns from the F250 diesel version. The F350 gas/diesel trucks have the same transmission as the F250 diesel. So the F250 gas truck is "built different" from its "big brothers".



As a note, it's also the same with Dexter axles. Many of their axles, 3500/4400/5000/6000, use the same spindle with different bearing/race/hub configurations which change the overall weight rating for the assembly. From the "outside looking in" they appear the same, but are built with significantly different components.



The owner's manuals for all 5 of the "major truck manufacturers": Ford, GM, Nissan, RAM and Toyota all state (using different words) that ALL (not part or a selection at owner's discretion) of the ratings, GVW, GAWR, GCWR must be followed.



For me, to state publically that I follow the GAWR rating (but am over the GVW) because the cops don't weigh vehicles, they weigh individual axles, for me, is using a "loophole" to skirt around and avoid what the owner's manual clearly states must be followed. When that advice is given, it should be followed with a "disclaimer" that this is not what the manufacturer recommends in the owner's manual, but it's how the poster decided to do it. Then a reader can decide whether to "take the risk" or follow the "manufacturer's recommendation"...



This is from a recent GM owner's manual: " ..drive to a scale and weigh on the front and on the rear wheels separately to determine axle loads. Individual axle loads should not exceed either of the gross axle weight ratings (GAWR). The total axle loads should not exceed the vehicle's gross vehicle weight rating

(GVWR). These ratings are given on the Certification/Tire label attached to the B-pillar. See “Certification/Tire Label” under Vehicle Load Limits on page 9-15. If weight ratings are exceeded, move or remove items to bring all weights below the ratings."
It does not say that the owner can "pick and choose" to find one (or more) ratings (and ignore the rest) to be "OK"....



It has long been the policy of this forum to provide advice to members who ask questions. We all have a responsibility to provide clear, concise advice that is accurate and legal. While some may offer advice on "how they do it", when it's posted, they (not the forum) assumes responsibility for any issues that may result from their advice. We have always maintained that any advice that is provided should meet the level of being legally and morally accurate. We shouldn't be providing a means or a procedure to "teach someone" how to use a "loophole in the law" or to "skirt" the owner's manual to avoid meeting the requirements that are clearly documented by the manufacturer.


I have researched this exhaustively. For a 2016 (which is probably the case for many/all years in that generation) the rear axles/housing/bearings/hub/whole-thing is the same between an F250 and an F350 SRW. Been at the parts counter; have actually removed the hubs and axles. There is no difference.

The F250 is a gasser and the F350 SRW is a diesel. The ring and pinion were different due to different ratio, however the carrier and bearings were the same.

My F250 has the camper package which comes with the overload spring found on the F350 SRW.

In my case anyway, it is the same truck as the F350 SRW.

I would have purchased an F350 SRW, however the F250 I bought was a better opportunity. Finding an F350 gasser are hard to find in my area. Special ordering would have been more expensive than buying off the lot.

In any case, I basically follow the GVWR and GAWR of the F350 SRW. I'm good with everyone's opinions regarding my choice... it doesn't bother me.


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Old 06-14-2017, 09:38 PM   #22
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So back to the OP's question, can he carry/tow the 5er in question?
Well as I replied earlier, that 5er is longe but lighter than the 5er we tow with our 2001 Ram 2500. Yes I am over the 8,800 GVWR, but under both axle ratings. I don't need bags to carry the load LEVEL. This works for me, but is not a recommendation, that is for the OP to decide. He might be very close to the Class 2 restricted 10,000# GVWR, we need some more information.
To the OP load up your TV with normal load for camping and get it scaled, I would like to know if you can squeeze in under the TV GVWR.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:40 PM   #23
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Sourdough,
You do understand that the reason that Class 2 trucks exist is due to the fact that Class 3 truck are automatically considered commercial for licensing and insurances reasons.
That said most 250/2500 are the same as their 350/3500 counterparts, with some very small exceptions like maybe softer springs.
The reason axle ratings could be lower are tires, not the axle itself, most of the full floating axles used in 250/2500 carry a GAWR of close to 10,000# from the axle manufacturer. The limiting factor is the base tires on the axle.
The OP is located in California, therefore the registration of their vehicle will be dealt with accordingly. We don't have Class A, B, C et.al. types of truck registration, in the same way other states do. This will really get into the weeds, so I'll keep it short.

In CA you do NOT need to be engaged in commerce to have a commercial vehicle license/registration. All pickups, regardless if it is a Toyota short bed 2WD, or a Ram 3500 dually, receive a commercial license (even taxicabs in CA are commercially registered, but not germane to this topic) due to the weight fees associated to the fact they CAN carry cargo, regardless if they are used in commerce or only on Sunday to get groceries. Conversely, you can register your pickup in California as a passenger vehicle with a camper shell "permanently" affixed (PM coding on the registration paperwork) and not pay weight fees, but you're limited to what you can carry. There is additional info I could get into related to the registration confusion in CA.

The newer Ram 2500's have a coil/tracking arm suspension setup, while the 3500 SRW has a traditional leaf spring set-up, but BOTH trucks use the SAME axle. They very well might have the exact same tire, but the rear GAWR will be different due to the suspension configuration (2015 Ram 2500 CC 4x4 Diesel has a 6000 rear GAWR, and the 2015 Ram 3500 CC 4x4 Diesel SRW has a 7000 rear GAWR).

To more directly answer the OP question, I upgraded to a Ram 3500 DRW from a 2500, just to be safe, and avoid any of the concerns i had/will have while towing larger trailers. You'll be happier.
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:00 AM   #24
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My sticker on the door jam reads GVWR 10.000
My truck is a 2016
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:23 AM   #25
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I think they are curious about the payload for your specific truck, which is listed on the door jamb yellow sticker.
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:53 AM   #26
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I think they are curious about the payload for your specific truck, which is listed on the door jamb yellow sticker.
Yup. Desert185 is "spot on"...

The GVW of all 3/4 ton trucks is currently limited to 10000 pounds. Some are listed at 9900 (for regulatory considerations) most at 10K. The issue is not the "GVW" but rather the actual vehicle weight, and the payload, which is what's left over from what the vehicle weighs. That's the "key" to what you can carry, not the GVW which is the maximum that the loaded vehicle can weigh.

For instance, if your truck weighs 4000 pounds with a GVW of 10K, you can carry 6000 pounds, but if your truck weighs 9800 pounds with a GVW of 10K, well, doing the math, that leaves 200 pounds. These are "extreme examples" but hopefully show the vast difference in payload. A single cab "base model" truck will weigh less than a "luxury model" crew cab, even though they both are 3/4 ton trucks with a 10K GVW. The base model will have a significantly larger payload capacity (GVW minus what the truck weighs) than a much heavier and "option loaded" luxury model.

So, it's really the "yellow sticker payload" that tells the story about what your truck can carry "at the GVW rating".
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Old 06-15-2017, 09:48 AM   #27
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Look for a sticker like this on the B pillar.


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Old 06-15-2017, 11:29 AM   #28
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The newer Ram 2500's have a coil/tracking arm suspension setup, while the 3500 SRW has a traditional leaf spring set-up, but BOTH trucks use the SAME axle. They very well might have the exact same tire, but the rear GAWR will be different due to the suspension configuration (2015 Ram 2500 CC 4x4 Diesel has a 6000 rear GAWR, and the 2015 Ram 3500 CC 4x4 Diesel SRW has a 7000 rear GAWR).
.
The RAM 2500 Rear Axle rated at 6000 lbs on the towing chart is due to the base tradesman 17" wheels and tires. Once you go to the 18" wheels you have a 6500 LB rear axle rating.





Edit: Notice the axle rating went up with the wheel/tire upgrade but the payload did not? HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:30 AM   #29
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My yellow sticker says, Combined weight cargo and occupants 2134
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:56 AM   #30
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The RAM 2500 Rear Axle rated at 6000 lbs on the towing chart is due to the base tradesman 17" wheels and tires. Once you go to the 18" wheels you have a 6500 LB rear axle rating.





Edit: Notice the axle rating went up with the wheel/tire upgrade but the payload did not? HHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


Yes I'm aware. I was using the base Ram PDF chart. But, with that being said, there would only be a 500 pound difference btwn the 2500 and 3500 SRW, if everything else is the same.

My 2015 came stock with 20x8 wheels, it still had the 6500 rating. so yes, a lot goes into the calculation of GVWR/GAWR... my propeller hat broke a long time ago. the sticker i posted was the payload for my 2015.


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Old 06-15-2017, 12:02 PM   #31
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Semper Fi. I was in a similar situation and sort or resolved it by upgrading after buying a 5r that put my 2015 Ram 2500 SB 4x4 CTD overweight.

Here is a lengthy post I posted a while back which may help answer many of your questions. http://www.keystoneforums.com/forums...d.php?p=234546
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:04 PM   #32
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Your yellow sticker says you can have 2134 pounds of "people/cargo" so let's do a quick "smell test":

DW 125
running boards 40
2" ball mount 15
fifth wheel hitch 100
tool box 40
misc cargo 50 (GPS, sunglasses, cooler, DW's sweater, maps, tire gauge, etc)

TOTAL: 370



Payload - cargo = max pin weight of LOADED trailer 2134-370 = 1764

336 BHSWSE specs
Dry 10,325#
Payload 1,910#
GVWR. 12,235
Dry Pin. 1,835 71 pounds OVER your payload before you put one pound of propane, battery, or cargo/camping gear in your trailer.

At this point, at least to me, it's just a matter of doing some basic, simple addition and subtraction. Ain't "rocket science".....
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:43 PM   #33
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Yes I'm aware. I was using the base Ram PDF chart. But, with that being said, there would only be a 500 pound difference btwn the 2500 and 3500 SRW, if everything else is the same.

My 2015 came stock with 20x8 wheels, it still had the 6500 rating. so yes, a lot goes into the calculation of GVWR/GAWR... my propeller hat broke a long time ago. the sticker i posted was the payload for my 2015.


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Not a lot goes into the calculation of the GVWR on a 2500, 10,000 lbs and wala. A little bit of thinking will tell one that there is a very good chance that the truck is built to handle more than the GVWR though. That is up to the individual to decide and execute if willing. Do you really think the engineers and manufacture de-rate their HD components down to 10,000 lb's just to not be commercial? You made your decision which is a mighty fine one that works for you, but for all the badged officials on this forum that voice their opinion, there are just as many 2500 pullers on here that are over their payload and within their trucks capabilities and are silenced because they do not want to deal with the drama. Just look at signatures when you are looking through threads.

Now don't think in any way that i believe any RV can be pulled by a 2500.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:56 PM   #34
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Not a lot goes into the calculation of the GVWR on a 2500, 10,000 lbs and wala. A little bit of thinking will tell one that there is a very good chance that the truck is built to handle more than the GVWR though. That is up to the individual to decide and execute if willing. Do you really think the engineers and manufacture de-rate their HD components down to 10,000 lb's just to not be commercial? You made your decision which is a mighty fine one that works for you, but for all the badged officials on this forum that voice their opinion, there are just as many 2500 pullers on here that are over their payload and within their trucks capabilities and are silenced because they do not want to deal with the drama. Just look at signatures when you are looking through threads.



Now don't think in any way that i believe any RV can be pulled by a 2500.

True. But this thread is going waaaay off topic and into the tall weeds.

If those "badged officials" here can help keep someone who decides, "awe.. screw it, so what if I'm overweight" from meeting those of us, who in real life are officially badged, and CAN take enforcement action, from being put in that position, isn't that a good thing?


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Old 06-15-2017, 01:05 PM   #35
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But, with that being said, there would only be a 500 pound difference btwn the 2500 and 3500 SRW, if everything else is the same.

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Ding ding ding we have a winner there is only 500 Lb difference in the axles yet 1800 lbs difference in payload. That's another HHHHHMMMMM for those with inquisitive minds.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:10 PM   #36
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Ding ding ding we have a winner there is only 500 Lb difference in the axles yet 1800 lbs difference in payload. That's another HHHHHMMMMM for those with inquisitive minds.


The frames are different, as are the suspensions coils vs. leaf. Distribution of weight


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Old 06-15-2017, 01:12 PM   #37
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True. But this thread is going waaaay off topic and into the tall weeds.

If those "badged officials" here can help keep someone who decides, "awe.. screw it, so what if I'm overweight" from meeting those of us, who in real life are officially badged, and CAN take enforcement action, from being put in that position, isn't that a good thing?


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We went over this earlier with rhagfo and sourdough. What kind of enforcement action can you take with how weights are currently enforced?

And this is all on topic. It all related to the original poster asking if his potential setup is "doable"

Edit: I'm done now my point has been made. I'll go in the back 40 and mow the tall weeds.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:33 PM   #38
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We went over this earlier with rhagfo and sourdough. What kind of enforcement action can you take with how weights are currently enforced?

And this is all on topic. It all related to the original poster asking if his potential setup is "doable"

Edit: I'm done now my point has been made. I'll go in the back 40 and mow the tall weeds.
Doable does not legal make.

It can vary from state to state. Some states will enforce strictly off the GVWR of the tow vehicle, others my overlook the GVWR and enforce the axle and/or tire ratings, other states it might be a combo. Why take the chance. Regardless, its best to tow SAFELY and well within the vehicles legal limits. Better to learn a lesson before its taught, especially the hard way.

Have fun, and don't hit any rocks
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:58 PM   #39
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I recently experienced something similar.....it's a long story and I've pretty much gone over it in other threads. So here's the bottom line on mine. I was within about 80 lbs or so (scaled weights) of the 10K GVWR of my F250 Diesel. I was legal in every catagory...GVWR, Axle ratings both front and rear, Combined weight, trailer towing capacity.....everything! The GVWR was too close for comfort for me, and I was having some swaying issues at times because I simply did not have enough tongue weight with the T.H. loaded the way it would be when we left for the trackday weekends. If I could have towed with the trailer empty, it towed just fine......but hey, what fun is that? So, I decided to turn my situation around and remedy part of the stability issue witht a Crew Cab 1 Ton Dually. Overkill for the T.H.?......probably, but stability and excessive CCC was what I was looking for. So now, this coming Saturday, I will be loading the T.H. up, just as it will be loaded when I travel with it, and I'll be taking it out to the Interstate to get my towing setup fine tuned.....tongue weight, W.D. hitch settings, and tongue height. With the previous truck, I knew that I needed more tongue weight to make the sway subside, but there was no way to do that without going over the GVWR of the 3/4 Ton truck. I now have the luxury of adding as much tongue weight as I need without fear of overloading Anything.

The final result will be.....
1. No sway issues
2. Nothing overloaded
3. Peace of mind without worry whether or not the trailer is stable.
4. Completely legal within weight numbers
5. 100% "Doable"
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:16 PM   #40
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I recently experienced something similar.....it's a long story and I've pretty much gone over it in other threads. So here's the bottom line on mine. I was within about 80 lbs or so (scaled weights) of the 10K GVWR of my F250 Diesel. I was legal in every catagory...GVWR, Axle ratings both front and rear, Combined weight, trailer towing capacity.....everything! The GVWR was too close for comfort for me, and I was having some swaying issues at times because I simply did not have enough tongue weight with the T.H. loaded the way it would be when we left for the trackday weekends. If I could have towed with the trailer empty, it towed just fine......but hey, what fun is that? So, I decided to turn my situation around and remedy part of the stability issue witht a Crew Cab 1 Ton Dually. Overkill for the T.H.?......probably, but stability and excessive CCC was what I was looking for. So now, this coming Saturday, I will be loading the T.H. up, just as it will be loaded when I travel with it, and I'll be taking it out to the Interstate to get my towing setup fine tuned.....tongue weight, W.D. hitch settings, and tongue height. With the previous truck, I knew that I needed more tongue weight to make the sway subside, but there was no way to do that without going over the GVWR of the 3/4 Ton truck. I now have the luxury of adding as much tongue weight as I need without fear of overloading Anything.

The final result will be.....
1. No sway issues
2. Nothing overloaded
3. Peace of mind without worry whether or not the trailer is stable.
4. Completely legal within weight numbers
5. 100% "Doable"


Maybe because I'm old but I simply prefer to being legal. My F250 pulled my Cougar fine, but over payload by 200#. So it was off to the dealer to trade a 2016 F250 on a 2016 F350. Very little loss to be legal. Now pulling the Montana I'm still in good shape according to the scale.
After seeing an ad by an ambulance chaser stating if you are involved in an accident with an rv it may be overloaded. Call us out investigators will find out for your civil suit. That prompted a call to my attorney and the decision was made early as he would work with an attorney like that. But then, I'm an old guy!


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