Quality???

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by earlzach

Wow, how deep did you read into it? If you have had "no" issues then you possibly couldn't understand the "BIT" of frustration I had to see the sloppy glue job.
Please try not to embellish an unrealistic attitude. It wasn't like that at all.
Starting to believe this site rejects the fission of fails or mistakes. I can't believe we all have so much money to burn that we should just praise what we end up with.
No hard feelings, glad yours was perfect. I can only wish I had the same experience.

I think jsmith may have been referring to the post from cvin (my take when reading) but I could be wrong.

I don't think anyone on this site rejects the fact that there are mistakes and fails in the production of an RV....ANY and ALL RVs. Some get units that have no flaws, some with a few and some with lots. It's NOT a Keystone issue, it's RV manufacturing in general. I've owned several different brands other than Keystone and every single one had issues; and that's over a span of decades and nothing has changed. My brother has bough 2 5th wheels in the last few years (neither Keystone) and mine is a much better coach IMO. It is the way it is and if you don't accept it you are just heckbound to make yourself miserable. Wishing it was different, comparing to auto manufacturers etc. is just wasted time and effort. As John pointed out, there is zero incentive for the manufacturers to change their business model.....none - so why would they? Why would anyone think they were going to?

If you are going to own an RV you have to have your head in the game. The game of RV ownership. You have to know how it works, why it works and accept it or you are doomed to a life of frustration. Those of us that own them and are happy, regardless of how many flaws we find (and I've had far beyond my share on this one) understand this and take the good with the bad. I've had my trailer in the shop almost as much as I've used it but I love it - and in fact it's helped me learn a LOT. Do I fault Keystone? The dealer? Fate? The world? Not really. I knew buying it that it could have problems. I did everything I could to assure it didn't before I left with it. So did the dealer. There are just some things you can't see. As far as Keystone, they had the best floorplan, construction and pricing compared to all the others I compared - the very best. Did someone miss the boat on some of the parts installed? Yes. Does that happen everyday in RV construction? Yes. So, is the answer to go bonkers over money spent on a TOY and ruin your ownership experience? I say no. Do we accept the realities of what it is we're getting into, take care of the issues and move forward having fun? I say yes as well. It's all in the head, your mindset....and I'm normally a really aggressive, no bs, do it my way or else kind of guy; and that's the way I approach any construction done for me, car buying, property etc. etc. but not with the RV. I have a lot of oomph but not enough to motivate Keystone, or any other RV manufacturer, to change their ways.....unless I bought the company....which ain't gonna happen (not THAT much oomph!).....so, where was I?.......back to it's a "mindset". I want an RV so............. (does it start to makes sense now?.......

[chuckster57]

Originally Posted by sourdough

I think jsmith may have been referring to the post from cvin (my take when reading) but I could be wrong.

I don't think anyone on this site rejects the fact that there are mistakes and fails in the production of an RV....ANY and ALL RVs. Some get units that have no flaws, some with a few and some with lots. It's NOT a Keystone issue, it's RV manufacturing in general. I've owned several different brands other than Keystone and every single one had issues; and that's over a span of decades and nothing has changed. My brother has bough 2 5th wheels in the last few years (neither Keystone) and mine is a much better coach IMO. It is the way it is and if you don't accept it you are just heckbound to make yourself miserable. Wishing it was different, comparing to auto manufacturers etc. is just wasted time and effort. As John pointed out, there is zero incentive for the manufacturers to change their business model.....none - so why would they? Why would anyone think they were going to?

If you are going to own an RV you have to have your head in the game. The game of RV ownership. You have to know how it works, why it works and accept it or you are doomed to a life of frustration. Those of us that own them and are happy, regardless of how many flaws we find (and I've had far beyond my share on this one) understand this and take the good with the bad. I've had my trailer in the shop almost as much as I've used it but I love it - and in fact it's helped me learn a LOT. Do I fault Keystone? The dealer? Fate? The world? Not really. I knew buying it that it could have problems. I did everything I could to assure it didn't before I left with it. So did the dealer. There are just some things you can't see. As far as Keystone, they had the best floorplan, construction and pricing compared to all the others I compared - the very best. Did someone miss the boat on some of the parts installed? Yes. Does that happen everyday in RV construction? Yes. So, is the answer to go bonkers over money spent on a TOY and ruin your ownership experience? I say no. Do we accept the realities of what it is we're getting into, take care of the issues and move forward having fun? I say yes as well. It's all in the head, your mindset....and I'm normally a really aggressive, no bs, do it my way or else kind of guy; and that's the way I approach any construction done for me, car buying, property etc. etc. but not with the RV. I have a lot of oomph but not enough to motivate Keystone, or any other RV manufacturer, to change their ways.....unless I bought the company....which ain't gonna happen (not THAT much oomph!).....so, where was I?.......back to it's a "mindset". I want an RV so............. (does it start to makes sense now?.......

Well stated. And I too,thought it was directed to cvin.

[JRTJH]

^^ What sourdough said and what chuckster says about what he said.....

[madmaxmutt]

I am guessing, you didn't read my entire post. Financial pressure from us the customers, current and future, is what you just wrote about. The regulatory pressure I hope to see some day, is focused on the useless tires they deliver. If we continue to accept what is delivered substandard (to our expectations), then we get what we ask for.

Edit: I don't want to be an apologist for the industry. Hence, my turning down a trailer delivered with a suspect roof.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[earlzach]

Originally Posted by madmaxmutt

I am guessing, you didn't read my entire post. Financial pressure from us the customers, current and future, is what you just wrote about. The regulatory pressure I hope to see some day, is focused on the useless tires they deliver. If we continue to accept what is delivered substandard (to our expectations), then we get what we ask for.

Edit: I don't want to be an apologist for the industry. Hence, my turning down a trailer delivered with a suspect roof.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

This was my second trailer. The first was poorly treated while on the dealers lot. There was nothing they could do short of giving me the trailer to take it. This is why we had a second unit brought up from Va. I made it clear not to put it on there lot. It never left there service bay untill I pulled it out four days after it arrived.
Even if I would have seen the glue mess I would have not rejected it. But as it is still going to be I would have made it clear it would need fixed. It sounds to me I made out much better than I could have.

[madmaxmutt]

Originally Posted by earlzach

This was my second trailer. The first was poorly treated while on the dealers lot. There was nothing they could do short of giving me the trailer to take it. This is why we had a second unit brought up from Va. I made it clear not to put it on there lot. It never left there service bay unroll I pulled it out four days after it arrived.
Even if I would have seen the glue mess I would have not rejected it. But as it is still going to be I would have made it clear it would need fixed. It sounds to me I made out much better than I could have.

Sorry, the quote didn't work on that post (love Tapatalk [emoji33] ). That was in response to someone else who quoted me.

I agree the little stuff can be taken care of locally, I just wish the dealerships would do it before we show up.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[SummitPond]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

... That's less than one night for 2 rooms at Motel 6 and it's got a kitchen so no food costs. That makes it cheaper than Motel 6 ofr our vacation this year. Such a deal !!!!! ...

Not an attempt to hijack ... I really don't remember Motel 6 while growing up; the family stayed at Holiday Inn or HoJo before we started camping. But after I married we occasionally stayed at an 8 Days Inn - $8 a night. Amazing the increase in price ... of everything!

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by ShacterShack

Not an attempt to hijack ... I really don't remember Motel 6 while growing up; the family stayed at Holiday Inn or HoJo before we started camping. But after I married we occasionally stayed at an 8 Days Inn - $8 a night. Amazing the increase in price ... of everything!

To compare, our first "real travel trailer" was a 1968 Airstream 26' International that we bought new in 1969 for $6800. We were going to trade it for a new 31' International in 1970, but couldn't justify the price of $9100, so we kept our "old one"..... That same trailer today is over $80k and a 31' Airstream is well over $130k. We pulled it with a Dodge 3/4 ton truck that we bought new for $3600.

So, yup, it's "amazing the increase in price... of everything!

[Desert185]

Prices can be relative to income, though. When I was a kid some of the stuff I wanted was a year's income. Now, depending what it is, it's still a year's income for may folks.

[cvin]

I agree with what sourdough said but also think we as the buying public allow this

Agree there is no answer other than build a custom trailer at my trailer guys shop


The difference here is this is a toy hauler but for me it is not a toy, I bought this for WORK, to cut down on the 60,000 miles a year I am driving

If I wanted a toy this would definitely not have been the rv I would have picked

So every time this is down, I am driving to get parts, waiting on mobile rv guy etc I am losing money in addition to time

I am not retired and am not using this for weekends/vacations
it was bought to make my job more efficient

Money wise none of this has not cost a lot in parts or labor, but hassle and lost time is way over the top

Guess I am where a lot of people are that I have worked or repaired every system and surely am getting to the end of the problems....

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by cvin

I agree with what sourdough said but also think we as the buying public allow this

Agree there is no answer other than build a custom trailer at my trailer guys shop


The difference here is this is a toy hauler but for me it is not a toy, I bought this for WORK, to cut down on the 60,000 miles a year I am driving

If I wanted a toy this would definitely not have been the rv I would have picked

So every time this is down, I am driving to get parts, waiting on mobile rv guy etc I am losing money in addition to time




I am not retired and am not using this for weekends/vacations
it was bought to make my job more efficient

Money wise none of this has not cost a lot in parts or labor, but hassle and lost time is way over the top

Guess I am where a lot of people are that I have worked or repaired every system and surely am getting to the end of the problems....

Yes, the buying public propagates the status quo by buying up every unit made regardless of the problems. They DON'T WANT to pay the price for a unit that would be turned out with zero problems.

As far as work vs retirement/vacation etc. I agree wholeheartedly that having the pressure of the need to get work done while the RV keeps giving problems would get a person upset....it would have me frothing at the mouth. I think the problem with the situation is the "status quo", meaning the RVs have issues and there aren't many ways around that. As you said, hopefully you've worked on the various systems and you are getting close to getting the bugs worked out. Many/most of us have worked through that as well. Plus, if I recall it is a 2 year old, unused RV by the sellers account so that in itself can present problems. The only recourse I can see is to buy another NEW trailer and hope you get one with no issues. Here's to hoping you have just about rounded the corner on problems and are about to hit the clear, problem free highway.

[Tbos]

Chuckster57, that is good info to know about ordering one. I had not thought about that.


2016 Passport GT 2810BHS, 2016 F350 CC DRW

[cvin]

dont know about others but i would have gladly paid more for my trailer to be better built and more reliable
I had planned to spend double this amount and would have had no problems doing that especially if i had no issues

But the trailer i bought is not common around here, maybe someone could have ordered me one and had it shipped but i never saw one on a lot except in northern states

And I do not think the issues on my trailer were from it not getting used much, most of this stuff worked for a while or worked half ***

The relay in the control board for the ac did not freeze open from none use, find it hard to beleive the furnace fan motor is weak/not working well from none use, the interior of both these devices is pristine so not dirty, dusty etc

A good friend of mine bough a brand new jayco higher end tt and ended up sueing the dealer because they had so many problems with it, the dealer agreed to give them a new one and this second/new one rolled out for the pdi with no working water pump and the first time they used it the microwave cabinet came half off the wall

I dont know what to say other than this is definitely a flawed business model, which i realize we all agree on

It just stumps me because i need to go up to a 5th wheel in a couple of years and now i have no idea what i am going to do, definitely not buying new because i dont trust that either and i travel too much so trying to have one dealer fix issues is not going to work

Will seriously consider building one, my trailer guy builds way better trailers than this and we could build one where all the components would be accesible for work

Here is the kicker, i dont want to go to the trouble of building an rv but it seems if i want to get a more reliable one that may be the way to go

[chuckster57]

If you do build one please take lots of pics and share them.

Not buying new has the advantage of not taking the depreciation hit, but on the other hand, I have found time and again people trade in because they don't want to deal with the issues it had. There isn't a "car fax" for RV's so you'll have no idea how the P.O. Treated it or serviced it and if the selling dealer addressed them. Buying used is always "AS IS" and yes I worked for a short time for a dealer that hid major issues. In the end it's all about doing your homework and having a quality dealer.

[JRTJH]

To add my thoughts to chuckster's comments: Buying used is almost always a "pig in a poke" situation. You never know what the previous owner actually did (or didn't do), only what he says happened... Given that he wants you to buy what he's selling, unless you know his integrity, you may be "sold down the river"...

I honestly don't know how to buy used and know you're getting a quality product other than to "just be lucky".... There's so much that is hidden in an RV and so much that can be ignored (until you need it) and so much that can be damaged and not be identified (until it's too late). Heck, it's a "nightmare" getting things fixed on a new one with warranty. I'd think it's near impossible (at least improbable) to expect a used one to be "flawless" when towed off the lot or out of the previous owner's driveway, and with the "as is/where is" purchase, it could get very expensive very quick.

When the story you hear is, "We only camped in it 3 times" and the rest of the story is, "the water pump wouldn't work, the water heater leaked, the refrigerator wouldn't cool, the A/C wouldn't cool, the furnace wouldn't heat and the floor is "squishy" which is why we put a chair in that corner where the floor gets wet every time it rains, and the dealer is on the other side of the country and the local guy refused to fix the stuff that won't work, so we are upset and selling it so we don't have to deal with it"...... And you ask, "Is there anything wrong with it?" and the answer is, "No, nothing that we haven't already addressed."..... Hmmmmm

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

To add my thoughts to chuckster's comments: Buying used is almost always a "pig in a poke" situation. ..... Hmmmmm

Which is why you do a several hour PDI, new or used. from top to bottom after throwing the salesman out of the door

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Dave W

Which is why you do a several hour PDI, new or used. from top to bottom after throwing the salesman out of the door

And even with that extensive PDI, you still won't find the damp FILON backing behind the clearance light, the dripping "T" fitting under the floor that's making the insulation wet (but isn't wet enough to drip out of the coroplast, the 4 staples on the third rafter that missed the OSB under the TPO roof membrane (but haven't yet pulled out and poked a hole in the TPO) or the split in the air conditioner ducting between the bedroom and bathroom vents..... The list could go on for days and days.....

As complex as RV's are and with the "earthquakes, hurricanes and tornadoes" they are subjected to while towing, no matter how close you look, there's still better than 50% that you can't see and that can be a problem.

Find a 4 leaf clover or take your rabbit's foot with you when you throw that shaker of salt over your shoulder when you go to buy any RV.

[Dave W]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

And even with that extensive PDI, you still won't find etc, etc, etc.

True but you may be a heluva lot further ahead then the folks who walked through a used RV, got impressed by the bling, signed some paperwork and hooked their TV up and drove off into the sunset. A used trailer like anything else preowned can be a blessing or disaster and is not always a negative transaction. Some folks just wont/can't take the big dollar loss of a new RV as they cross the stealershios property line. Until the current 5er, the 7 previous RVs were preowned and nothing of significance was wrong with any of them including the 5er that was 'dropped' on a truck bed.

[Gegrad]

Just my observation, the above arguments are good reasons why a 3-4 year old used RV is a good buy. It is enough time for the major depreciation to hit, but not long enough for everything to truly fall apart yet. It is also enough time that the missed roof staple that will poke its head out of the TPO, or the bad roof sealant allowing a leak will have softened the walls/floor, or the dripping T valve will have made themseleves apparent by year 3 or 4. So if you find one that doesn't have the problems, either you found a good one, or they have been repaired.

For example, this summer while shopping, I passed on another 2014 29bh when I inspected it pre-purchase and observed that the lower fascia on the main slide was swollen and wet. So either a seal had leaked or something else. The dealer tried to give me a dicscount and offered to repair it, but I had abad gut feeling, so I walked away. The roof also had extensive sealant and look worse for the wear. I passed and found my current one which had nothing more than some superficial flaws. I might be biased though.

[Desert185]

Georad: "I might be biased though."

Nope. I'm that way with cars/pickups. Bought very few new one's over the years. Had less trouble with the used ones.