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Old 10-22-2018, 07:19 AM   #31
KHBama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWSWine View Post
The person that told you to go by axle rates is behind times and that is no longer valid way of determining payload. This has been reprinted in most of the major trucking newsletters over the last few months. I quote:

By Bob Raybuck
Director of Technical Services
NTEA
"Often, GVWR and gross vehicle weight (GVW) are thought to be the same, but they are not. A truck’s GVWR is the maximum weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer. GVW is the total weight of the truck and payload at a point in time.

There’s a common misconception that a truck’s GVWR is determined by adding gross axle weight ratings (GAWRs) together for all axles. Although this was a common way of calculating GVWR many years ago, it’s no longer an accurate method. The chassis manufacturer task of establishing a vehicle GVWR is much more difficult today due to advancement of safety system standards and how vehicles meet these requirements. This is why many trucks have a GVWR much lower than the combined axle ratings. It is not uncommon for a truck with a GVWR of 19,500 pounds to have a front axle rated at 7,500 pounds and a rear axle rated at 14,700 pounds. Safety standards that apply to braking, vehicle stability, and chassis manufacturer internal standards for durability, dynamic stability and handling can restrict GVWR even though the sum of the axle ratings exceeds 22,000 pounds. In this instance, the OEM set the GVWR at 19,500 pounds based on test results and vehicle dynamic performance to ensure a safe, reliable truck.”

By Bob Raybuck
Director of Technical Services
NTEA

https://drivewyze.com/blog/trucking-...g-work-trucks/

https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/Member_ben...rk_trucks.aspx


https://www.usspecial.com/2018/01/page/13/

http://procontractorrentals.com/page...iderations.php

Don't think anyone is determining payload based on axle ratings, but using axle ratings is better than using a marketing tool rating used by some, IMO. Until someone proves me wrong, again my Ram 2500 with a 5.7L has 1,000lbs less payload than a Ram 2500 6.4L despite only a 50ish lb different in engine. Magically the truck advertised as a more heavy duty truck(6.4L), gets the GVWR of 10,000lbs vs 9,000lbs for the 5.7L. I realize that 6.4L is stronger and can technically "pull" more, but we are talking strictly payload here.
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:31 AM   #32
CWSWine
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Originally Posted by alpo View Post
I am in the same situation. What I was told in many forums is the Payload is a conservative number based on assumed values and are not held to by MV Laws. The Truck’s GVWR and GAWR numbers are the ones NOT to exceed. That being said I was told to load the Truck with the people and Cargo expected to be in it when towing, and a Full Tank of Gas. Then go to a Scale (Such as a CAT scale used by semis) which should tell you the actual weights Front and Back Axle. As a 5er will rest almost entirely on the Rear Axle look at the Rear GAWR Rating minus the one you got at the scale for the Rear, that will leave you your true remaining Allowable Pin Weight for the 5er. Of course when looking at the 5er use 20% of its GVW (Fully Loaded Weight). I have found that even my 3/4 Tom Ram is barely enough for a 5er (never thought I’d say it but, Damm Cummins! Apparently it weighs close to 600# more than a hemi. It can Pull a mountain but not carry one).
Quote:
Originally Posted by KHBama View Post
Don't think anyone is determining payload based on axle ratings, but using axle ratings is better than using a marketing tool rating used by some, IMO. Until someone proves me wrong, again my Ram 2500 with a 5.7L has 1,000lbs less payload than a Ram 2500 6.4L despite only a 50ish lb different in engine. Magically the truck advertised as a more heavy duty truck(6.4L), gets the GVWR of 10,000lbs vs 9,000lbs for the 5.7L. I realize that 6.4L is stronger and can technically "pull" more, but we are talking strictly payload here.
The first quote is using axle ratings and ignoring payload. He weighing the truck and subtracting the axle scale weight from the Manufacture Axle Rating to determine the heaviest pin weight his truck can handle. Like it says in the Ford manual/towing guides and I quote "must not cause vehicle weights to exceed the rear GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) or GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). These ratings can be found on the vehicle’s Safety Compliance Certification LabeL”

Those high towing capacity that the dealers throw around to convince people to buy trucks. Here is the rest of the story.
SAE J2807 States that exceeding the GVWR/GAWR is a reason to fail the towing test at that weight. So GVWR/GAWR are still the deciding factor.

"5.4 GVWR/Rear GAWR and Tongue Weight/Kingpin Weight Considerations
The tow vehicle shall be able to accommodate appropriate trailer tongue and/or kingpin weight to attain a particular TWR
without exceeding Rear GAWR and/or GVWR. Required minimum conventional trailer tongue weight shall be 10% of TWR and required minimum fifth wheel or gooseneck trailer kingpin weight shall be 15% of TWR."

TWR = Trailer Weight Rating

http://fifthwheelst.com/documents/to...ds-2016-02.pdf
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:26 AM   #33
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CHP Endorsement

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Originally Posted by bob91yj View Post
CHP has started checking for non-commercial Class A license's out there the last few years. One of my CHP customers told me that they key on 3 axle trailers. If the VIN tag shows that the gross trailer weight is over 10k pounds for a bumper pull, or 15k on a 5th wheel, you'd better have the endorsement, or have a hell of a tow plan!
We live in Arizona and occasionally visit California. We're towing a heavy 3-axle Raptor Toy Hauler with a 2017 F350 DRW. Do "out of state" drivers get a brake on this endorsement? Is this something I should be concerned about?

Thanks for any information you have.
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:59 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by LewisB View Post
We live in Arizona and occasionally visit California. We're towing a heavy 3-axle Raptor Toy Hauler with a 2017 F350 DRW. Do "out of state" drivers get a brake on this endorsement? Is this something I should be concerned about?

Thanks for any information you have.
Most of those Raptor T.H.s are in the 19K GVWR if I'm not mistaken. Your Dually should have 5200+ lbs of payload. Do you think our know that you are over your weight capacities?
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Old 10-22-2018, 12:46 PM   #35
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Lewis, please read my signature.
You must be legal in your state regarding driver license and vehicle license. Each state can and does have different laws for THEIR residents. When traveling into another state, they cannot make you have something your state does not offer regarding drivers and vehicle license.
They can and do enforce road weight restrictions, speed restrictions, equipment restrictions. etc etc.
When talking about comm vehicles, that is different and takes a book to explain them.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:07 PM   #36
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Some believe I infer adding the Front and Rear GAWRs together total the GVWR - I did not infer that. I was only trying to relate how to determine available remaining PIN Weight by subtracting the actual Rear Axle Weight of a Fully Loaded and Gassed Truck from the Rear GAWR. You would need to add weight for the Hitch as well if not installed. As far as the Hitch goes MANY people recommend the Anderson Aluminum Hitch which is quite Light. Grand Design 5th Wheels offer a Swivel Pin Hitch that works for Short Boxes without the need of a Heavy Slider.
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Old 10-22-2018, 06:31 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpo View Post
Grand Design 5th Wheels offer a Swivel Pin Hitch that works for Short Boxes without the need of a Heavy Slider.
Only in the “150 series” Reflection. It’s called “turning point” and you can lock it out for regular towing.

https://www.lci1.com/turning-point
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Old 10-22-2018, 07:52 PM   #38
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Don't believe ANYTHING the salesman tells you about weights and tow vehicles. I had an F150 ecoboost with a 1700 lb payload and I believed him and about a small fifth wheel, a Cougar xlite 28sgs at just under 31 feet with pin weight of 1410. After a few trips, I loaded up and went to the scales and was about 400 lbs over payload. So, I switched to LT tires and added helper springs. But, I still had the same axles and wheels which have weight limits. I started thinking, if I'm in a wreck, and worse if someone gets hurt, the judge will know I was overloaded as will the insurance company. You can only play stupid so long before bad things happen. I sold the F150, which we loved, and a bought a nice rough riding F350. I'm well within the towing and payload limits and feel much safer. Know your legal limits and buy the correct combination of trailer and tow vehicle and ignore the salesman.

BTW, my F150 was a short bed and I bought the Reese Sidewinder with a regular 5th wheel hitch, ie, no slider, and it worked fine - no broken rear window. I might recommend the Reese Airborne Sidewinder to help minimize the chucking and bucking while going down the road, but it is a bit more expensive; however, no first hand knowledge with it.

I love your post...thanks.
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