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Old 05-29-2015, 09:01 PM   #1
cb1000rider
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New Carbon 327 owner

I have some concerns about Keystone's "response" to legitimate consumer issues, however, that being said, they've got great floor plans.

In terms of quality - I read about Raptor being "higher quality" - I see zero difference in quality. I see difference in options and trim level.

This is our first toy hauler, we turned down a beautiful diesel pusher to have something more in line with our lifestyle. With the required truck purchase, it's a 100k+ lifestyle choice. Keystone, don't screw this up....

I'm very mechanically inclined. Where keystone (and most towables) are low build quality (compared to a diesel pusher) - it's also mechanically simple and relatively non-complex. Hopefully we won't have issues - it'll be stored covered and well maintained.

This would be our 4th RV. First 5th wheel. One long trip per year and lots of odd weekends.

Price reference:
MSRP on our Carbon 327 was 64,264.00.
"Sale" price: 48,499.00
Out the door: 51,898.79
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:06 AM   #2
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I think comparing a diesel pusher to a 5th wheel is like comparing apples and oranges. There is no comparison. Both require completely different things and a different lifestyle.

When we bought our current camper I went in with full intentions of buying a nice diesel pusher. You mention that your 5ver and a new truck is a 100k purchase. The diesel pusher we looked at was 400k.....not much comparison. The pusher requires a 2nd vehicle, and drivetrain, which is already paid for in the coach. The list goes on (mtce./insurance costs, how much will you use it to get your money's worth etc) but they really are starkly different as well as the considerations used when trying to evaluate how you will use your camper.

As far as Keystone's response to legitimate repair concerns I can't really complain. Have you had issues? I have had many repairs and I've not paid a cent yet so don't know that you can beat that.

As far as quality....trim level would be considered quality. Solid wood trim vs plastic strips or glue on strips; walls that are attached solidly and don't flop when pushed (ALL brands do it); residential fixtures vs plastic; percelain toilet bowl vs plastic; stainless steel sinks vs plastic; the list is almost endless. Those items are perceived as "upgrades", hence quality. All frames/suspensions aren't the same on all models; another example. Build quality is what you would expect for a mass produced, lightweight box on wheels. I do think all RVs suffer from the "manufactured on Friday or Monday" syndrome.

We've got almost 100k invested in our rig only my first thought wasn't "Keystone, don't screw this up....". I did my homework and I made the choice. My thought is "Dan, I hope you didn't screw this up" since I don't think Keystone will do anything for my new truck, I bought Keystone (they didn't force it on me) and an RV is what it is.....different philosophy I guess.
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:10 AM   #3
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Beating a dead horse comes to mind... We get it you don't like Keystone...
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Old 05-30-2015, 05:08 PM   #4
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I don't dislike Keystone, I like their product, or I wouldn't have bought one. I'd say I'm "concerned" about their supporting their end customers, but I can't honestly say that it's a real issue or just the by-product of selling a LOT of campers and having a few people complain loudly...

Feedback like above helps me get more comfortable.
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Old 05-30-2015, 05:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1000rider View Post
I don't dislike Keystone, I like their product, or I wouldn't have bought one. I'd say I'm "concerned" about their supporting their end customers, but I can't honestly say that it's a real issue or just the by-product of selling a LOT of campers and having a few people complain loudly...
Feedback like above helps me get more comfortable.
You will have "a few people" complain loudly if you give them free ice cream with sprinkles. Discounting them, the vast majority (90%) of members who responded to a poll conducted on this forum in 2011/2012 indicated they would buy another Keystone.

There's such a thing as worry just to worry and an entirely different concern called worry when it's justified. So far, all you've got is the "ice cream/sprinkle complainers" to base your "worries on". Lighten up and enjoy your new rig. If things go to "heck in a handbasket" for you, then worry and complain, otherwise, all you've done is "convey here-say".... as a member of "rumor control" your facts are based on rumor. Wait until you have a problem and report "your experience" not those you read on the internet and hear in the campground bath house.....
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Old 05-30-2015, 05:29 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1000rider View Post
I don't dislike Keystone, I like their product, or I wouldn't have bought one. I'd say I'm "concerned" about their supporting their end customers, but I can't honestly say that it's a real issue or just the by-product of selling a LOT of campers and having a few people complain loudly...

Feedback like above helps me get more comfortable.
Can't tell it by the tone of your previous posts. What you're gonna find is that most, (not all) folks will only come on the internet to complain.. rarely do you see someone spend the effort to report the great experience..
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Old 05-30-2015, 05:47 PM   #7
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I think I've mentioned that (volume vs complaint amount) in prior posts, but thanks for letting me know how I'm coming across.... Their BBB response leaves something to be desired - and honestly it would have cost them at least one sale (mine) - but I had a buddy that owned Keystone for 2 years and had zero issues...
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Old 05-30-2015, 06:26 PM   #8
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The way you're "coming across" to the 90% of us who are satisfied customers who actually like and use our Keystone products is that you're the "new kid on the block" who is blowing off steam telling us how terrible our trailers are. There are a few of us who look past that, but it does get to be very frustrating to have a "new member" tell us repeatedly that we must be "screwed up" because we actually are satisfied with Keystone. It may come as a surprise to you, but many of us have never been back to the dealer for any repair and have never had a failure that could be attributed to Keystone. I'm one of them with two, back to back Keystone purchases, both of which have been everything I expected and more.

Sit back, relax, look around the forum, find things that interest you and please, stop posting the rumors, BBB reports and internet complaints about our trailers.

So far, it appears that you're a new Keystone owner who has not had any problems with your trailer and have no "personal complaints" with Keystone, yet looking at the number of posts you've made about how "terrible" Keystone is, I'd have to ask why the negative posts? If YOU have a problem with yours and want to identify it, by all means post your experiences. You'll likely get some suggestions on how to help resolve the issues and some sage advice on what other's have done in similar situations.

BUT, when you join the forum and immediately start telling us how terrible our Keystone trailer is, you really don't make a lot of friends nor do you gain much understanding or support.

Other forums are different. I know I'm a member of some where you'd have been "tarred and feathered" and shipped out with a resounding bit of profanity. We try not to do that here, but we also don't like to be preached to because we are satisfied with our investment. There's nothing wrong with being satisfied and we've heard the "horror stories about a friend's friend's dad's trailer that Keystone abandoned. Seems strange that we've never found anyone who could identify that person or really find out what actually happened to his trailer, but we still get told that we must be "unlearned" or "naive" because we aren't up in arms over "something". I just have to ask, "WHY" ???
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:51 PM   #9
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My thinking is this;

If I don't have a personal bad experience with a product, and no one I know does, the last thing I do is try to recite a bunch of stuff (opinions) I read on the internet. You mention a BBB response. Response (singular)? Where? How many BBBs did you screen? Maybe some owners might hit up the BBB in Indiana where they are manufactured but elsewhere? I look at BBB responses "sometimes". I know when I do that I am overlooking the 90% of folks that are happy with "whatever".

The posts you have made are negative about Keystone in virtually all respects (except floorplan) and yet you have no reason to base that on except "something" (undefined) you read on the internet. As an intelligent person (well above Mensa requirements); a nit picking, cross the t/dot the I person, I feel I did my homework on a Keystone. I don't think there is anyone that could have done a better, more thorough, job. If you bought one, and you seem intelligent, you did your homework as well and chose Keystone. Why the constant barrage of negativity? It doesn't make sense.

I think you've read some bad stuff about Keystone (it's there with all manufacturers). You've made a substantial purchase and wonder if they will stand behind you. Understood. I bought my trailer based on what I could find out about Keystone (also Rockwood, Heartland, Jayco, Palomino,etc.) and knew that it was a toss up. I think you are looking for confirmation that you made the right decision by making negative remarks and hoping for good answers. That's not the way to approach this.

You have made the purchase. You bought a nice camper. Use it. Enjoy it. At this stage in my life I've learned that trying to worry yourself to death about things that aren't there WILL kill you. If you have issues address them with the dealer and/or Keystone if required when they happen. It's a procedure required by all RV manufacturers. If you need assistance there are so many knowledgeable, capable owners on this forum....they can help you....unless you just want to tick off every person that ever bought a Keystone product...

Lighten up on the rhetoric. Join the fun. Come join us in "the light" This is NOT a personal attack; it's an attempt on my part to understand your feelings and help you feel more comfortable with your purchase....I made my last purchase one year ago and, even with several issues, I could not be happier with Keystone. I think you will find the same if you give your camper a chance.
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Old 05-30-2015, 08:19 PM   #10
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Hopefully the taring and feathering is unnecessary.

Can you show me a post where I've indicated that our trailers are horrible? I have indicated that all the 5th wheels I've seen aren't great build quality - but that includes other manufacturers too - it's the nature of creating a rolling house, I suppose. And I see a lot of posts about "quality" hierarchy within a manufacturer. This translates to trim level (in my head) and not quality - the manufacturing techniques are the same (at least within Keystone) - I haven't observed more attention to detail in the trim level. It took me a while to parse that out, so I may be slower than most.

Honestly, I've owned Jayco, Holiday Rambler, and at least one other brand. I honestly can't see any quality difference in a Keystone to a Jayco or an HR 5th wheel (mostly)- so I'm going to ask about it before I put money into a purchase. I know more about motor coaches, that's all I've owned - so I'm more comfortable there.

I've never said that any of you screwed up. I'm sorry you chose to take it that way. What I did say was that I just invested a lot of money into family fun and that I hope that I made the right choice - it'd be influenced if Keystone screwed up the customer service end (assuming I even need it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
You mention a BBB response. Response (singular)? Where? How many BBBs did you screen? Maybe some owners might hit up the BBB in Indiana where they are manufactured but elsewhere?
As I'm taking heat for being critical, I'm not going to reference the direct page. If you want it, PM me. I did have to sort through to find the right location. I screened probably 30+ responses. I also looked at complaints of other manufacturers for scale. I was attempting to be "fair"... At least in my head.



I WANT to hear from people like you that have never had a problem... That's the point ASKING and clearly investigating this forum - as there was almost ZERO information about the model I was interested in anywhere else. And I believe I've posted that I'm trying to sort out if Keystone just produces massive volume compared to other manufacturers, so the number of complaints may be in-line or actually below others. Manufacturing numbers, if actually available, would have been great data.

I think asking me not to read BBB reports is in-appropriate. That's part of pre-purchase diligence. I'm aware of consumer behavior and that even squeaky clean businesses often end up with unreasonable demanding consumers. You'll note that my concern with the BBB stuff wasn't the consumer complaints - as you get only one side, but the actual response of the business.

I now own the same brand that you do... So obviously happy customers like you have addressed some of my concerns. You'll also note that some of my posts (past) and hopefully future will be technical and helpful in nature - I largely repair all my own stuff, so hopefully I'll be able to add value to the forum.

I try not to post rumors. The biggest rumor I've investigated is trying to determine manufacture quality (not trim level) hierarchy for toy haulers as indicated by posts on other forums.. I think I've come to determine outside of framing technique (wood/aluminum), they're largely very similar. Differences are warranty, factory-direct to consumer support, trim/option level, and general satisfaction when there is a problem.

There are legitimate (identifiable) reports of pretty serious defects on the internet. It's NOT unique to Keystone. If you think that I'm implying that it is, I'm doing it wrong.

I am aware of a 5500 Onan Genset that was a big problem for Thor motorcoaches. It wasn't rumor - I had a similar issue myself with the same genset and worked with owners to help get a technical solution. I'm happy to refer you to those off-forum posts. Gensets shouldn't overheat. Thor was working with owners, but trying to drive a motorcoach in Texas when it's 105 out and you don't have house AC is not fun and is actually dangerous. I think that IS a big problem and I might be able to contribute to how to fix it if it's happening to Kenstone owners with the Onan 5500. Likely "warranty service" won't fix it if it's what I think it is... AT least not in the first 3 attempts. Once again: NOT unique to Keystone.


Again, I like to hear what you're saying in terms of positive comments. And I'd love to hear that Keystone has responded to consumers and worked out issues directly, easily, and in a timely manner - because all manufacturers have issues. Those stories would be excellent.

And lastly, I'm an owner too. Zero problems to date. I was just nervous prior to purchase on something that is non-trivial in terms of cost and right on the line of go/no-go. There are a number of posts by Carbon owners here on this forum that helped me make that "Buy" decision.
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