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Old 04-08-2013, 03:19 PM   #1
Pmedic4
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Unhappy New Cougar High Country 291RLS - broken

Picked up my new 291RLS 3 weeks ago. Everything looked good, so my wife and I were ready. The unit was winterized, so the first thing we were going to do was sanitize the water system. Usual, put some bleach in, fill the fresh water tank, run all the faucets, and let it set for 4-5 hours.
First problem, as soon as I started filling the FW tank, water started running out of the bottom by the FW drain hose. Took a quick look, and it wasn't anything obvious. Called up the dealer and arranged for it to be fixed. They squeezed me in right away, and worked on the leak, found that the factory had installed and broken the connection to the pump. The service guy patched the hole, and re-routed the water line to the drain opening, and ordered a new FW tank... So going to have to make another trip back to the dealer service.
However, it didn't stop there. After we did fill and sanitize the FW system, went to drain the grey water tank. As soon as we started, water ran out of the black drain pipe, it was cracked right at the elbow. OH well, had some "Rescue Tape", and since it was going back to the dealer we'd have them fix that too.
Then, when taking the usual chairs out of the underneath storage area, noted water dripping off the black drain pipe for the toilet: item number 3.
Later noticed the toilet was loose on one side - at least we know why the drain pipe leaked; item 4.
Well, we're leaving after 2 days, after a somewhat disturbing start, but ready to go and dump the GW and BW tanks. Well, taking the cap off the Drain pipe, and it's full and water dumps out, as it appears the GW valve doesn't work: Item 5. Well, that dumped quickly so moved to the BW valve, and when I opened it, not only does it drain out of the pipe, but also from up by the valve assembly water is running down, so the Black Water drain pipe is broken right after the valve; Item 6. BW has now gone into the underneath cover! Yecch.
Oh yeah, the "EZ-CAMP" remote wasn't in RV, but that was more a misplace issue, more than a failure.

Overall, my biggest issue is that none of this was caught by the factory. Don't they test the water system? The fixtures, and do they test the drains? At this point I'm not upset, just disappointed.

I'll let everyone know the status when the dealer contacts me for replacing the FW tank.
BTW, I have to say, the service guys were great with what they did, getting it going for our first trip, so I don't have a complaint there.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #2
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Man , what a terrible start, I hate plumbing problems the worse. Hope everything gets worked out and you can get on with enjoying the unit.

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Old 04-08-2013, 06:09 PM   #3
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I hope it all works out, I'm sure the dealer will take total care of you
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:50 PM   #4
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Pmedic4,

You said you're satisfied with the dealer's service department, but in reality, they are the reason you're having all the issues that you've experienced. Each and every one of those problems is directly related to the service department NOT doing a proper Pre Delivery Service and Inspection. If they had done what Keystone paid them to do (properly check the function on each system and component) you would not be having any of the problems you're facing. It's the dealer's responsibility to functionally check each and every system in the RV, electric, fresh water, waste water, LP gas, water heater, refrigerator, lighting, awning, slides, furniture, windows, doors, locks, the list goes on and on. If the dealer had done a proper PDI, and possibly if you'd have run the PDI checklist, all of these would have been caught before you left the dealership.

As for the plumbing leaks around the waste tanks, from what you describe, it sounds more like freeze damage than improper installation. Do some checking around the split plumbing runs and you'll probably find it's not the glue joints rather the pipes that are split. The dealer should have caught all that before they even called you to come pick it up.

Let's hope they get it fixed and you can start camping without issues soon.
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Old 04-09-2013, 04:36 AM   #5
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I agree it sounds like water was in the pipes and they froze.

I also second the response that the dealer is to blame for much of this. I work as a manufacturer rep for Harley and yes the manufacturer pays the dealer to perform a Pre Delivery Inspection. I am not sure what RV manufacturers pay, but I am sure it is 2 hours or more. That is plenty of time to check all mechanical aspects of the RV. This obviously was not done in your case.

Hopefully they take care of this rather quickly for you.

It is sad that for the amount of money we pay for our TT's, Fivers, and Motorcoaches, it seems like it is the sloppiest industry around. We have bought 3 new trailers ( one TT and 2 fivers) since 2006 and I don't think we would go back to either 3 of the dealers that sold us.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:23 PM   #6
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New 291 Water Leaks

My first thought too was that the problems were caused by freezing of water in the pipes. And now seeing several others say that makes me even the more certain of it. It was winterized, but I wonder if they did a poor job, because all of the leaks could have from water left in the drain pipes and fresh water tank until too late. Probably the only exception would be the toilet leak, but that's clearly because the toilet isn't fastened down on one side, allowing the it to move and break the pipe.

The one thing my wife and I decided prior to JRTJH comments was to have the Service Department demonstrate that it doesn't leak - anywhere, and the valves work properly. And the worst part is, the unit is just unusable in the current situation.
Your comment about Keystone paying them to do the proper checkout is good information. While this is a 2012 'left-over', it doesn't relieve them of their obligations to ensure everything is working properly, in fact since it's set around awhile longer, they probably need to be extra attentive to proper functioning.
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Old 04-11-2013, 09:16 AM   #7
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You are absolutely correct in thinking that since the RV "sat around" on the dealer's lot, he should be extra-vigilant in making sure it's serviceable before delivery. Who knows how many people have gone through it, pulled, pushed, shaked and twisted components and possibly broken them in the process. Ask yourself how many kids dumped their drink down the toilet or how many wives (AND husbands) dumped that half bottle of water down the sink and how much of that filled the drain plumbing and caused the freeze damage you've probably got. It may have been winterized, but after sitting all summer on the lot, how much of that was negated by people "using" the RV while they explored the lot?

I can't begin to tell you how much money Keystone pays the dealer to be the "final quality inspector" AND "final repair tech" on each RV, but I've heard figures from $750 to well over $1000 per unit.

There is a "catch 22" in that program however. If the dealer does the inspection properly and repairs the damage/factory mistakes during that inspection, they have been paid for the maintenance "up front" and can only bill for parts/supplies used. HOWEVER: if they "halfway do the inspection, when you bring it back for warranty work, they can bill for labor AND parts/supplies. So, as the dealer, they can "squeeze the lemon a bit more" if they push it out without fixing everything.

Now, you've got to ask yourself, "Would my dealer maniuplate me that way?"

The answer, I think, is in reflecting on how hard the finance lady pushed you to buy the extended warranty, the fabric protection package, etc and how many promises you heard before the final handshake and how many of them were provided without you having to remind them about vs how many got changed because, "What I really said was....." Pretty much, if the salesman disappeared after you signed the paperwork and you haven't heard from him since, you might want to consider the possibility. If, on the other hand, your salesman has called you 3 or 4 times just to ask how things are going and if you're having any problems, you can probably consider that the dealership already "knows" that your RV was serviced properly and you aren't having any problems. And if you do happen to be the exception, they really want to know so they can fix it. On the other hand, if you can't find the salesman any more, he's always busy,,,, what does that tell you?????

Some dealers are completely above board and take care of their customers and feel they are making a fair profit by doing things the "right way" While some dealers are in the business to make the almightly buck no matter who they squeeze or twist in doing so.

That's why it is just as important to know your dealer as it is to know your RV.
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Old 04-11-2013, 05:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
I can't begin to tell you how much money Keystone pays the dealer to be the "final quality inspector" AND "final repair tech" on each RV, but I've heard figures from $750 to well over $1000 per unit.

There is a "catch 22" in that program however. If the dealer does the inspection properly and repairs the damage/factory mistakes during that inspection, they have been paid for the maintenance "up front" and can only bill for parts/supplies used. HOWEVER: if they "halfway do the inspection, when you bring it back for warranty work, they can bill for labor AND parts/supplies. So, as the dealer, they can "squeeze the lemon a bit more" if they push it out without fixing everything.

.
In the automotive and motorcycle industry, Dealerships are paid a " PDI" ( Pre-delivery inspection) and upon finding anything wrong, are paid both parts and labor above and beyond what the original PDI labor is. Now each manufacturer sets the amount of labor that can be charged by setting "labor codes" for each and every part that can be installed, R&R'd, inspected. The manufacturer can also set how the parts are charged out. They can be at retail, a percentage above cost, or at cost. I have worked for 2 Manufacturers as the Service and Parts Rep and my wife has worked for 4. All 6 were the same.

750- 1000 seems like a bit much. Unless you are talking about the "freight and prep" fee. Now this is where the dealer can truly double dip. Let me explain.

Say Keystone pays the dealer 3 hours to PDI the unit. Keystone pays them 3 hours no matter if it takes them 5 hours or 2. So a dealer who understands the basic principle of technician productivity and efficiency wants that tech to get the PDI done in 2 hours. The dealers labor rate is say 100 bucks ( on the high side). The dealer is paid 300 bucks from Keystone. Now the dealer charges us a $750 Prep. A Prep that has already been paid by the Manufacturer. So now they have been given $1050 to prep a unit. That $750 is pure gravy on top.

And they still don't PDI correctly.

We picked up our 2010 in July 2009 and took it off the dealer lot ( we traded another fiver in so we transferred everything over in the parking lot) and went camping. Shower leaked like a burst dam. I ran to Lowes and bought a tube of caulk and fixed it myself. It was pretty sad.

JRTH where abouts in MI are you at? Wife is from Freeland ( by Saginaw) and I am from NW Ohio. We used to go to Higgins lake every summer before we moved. We are heading back there in July for 10 days of camping at Breckinridge and Traverse City State Park. Should be fun!
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Old 04-11-2013, 08:43 PM   #9
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Cougar2010,

We live on a lake situated on a mountain top northeast of Gaylord. Every July we attend a huge family camping trip at North Higgins Lake State Park. It's a week with probably 25 or 30 rigs, 10 boats and pontoons with oodles of people. It's always a blast, but we certainly enjoy getting back home to the peace and quiet after that madhouse

Traverse City is a great place to visit/camp, and the State Park Campground there even has an elevated crosswalk over the road to get to the beach on Grand Traverse Bay. It stays packed during the summer, but in the fall, during the salmon run, there are usually open sites. If you're a Sam's Club member, go check out their local wine selection. It's about the cheapest prices you'll find. Some of the established winerys have excellent wines. You've got to try the cherry wine while you're here. Of course there's always the trips to the winery and samples there seem better and always more fun than buying at Sams.

Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes aren't too far away from TC or from us and that is an experience if you've never been, it's a mandatory "at least once in a lifetime" kind of place.

I often think how fortunate we are to live where everybody wants to vacation both in the summer and in the winter. Around our place, the 3 day weekends and holidays are jam packed with people. All the local campgrounds are booked solid. The locals sort of "sit it out" during the peak "crazy time" and when they go home on Monday, we more or less start moving back out from behind the trees

During the week, we have literally hundreds of miles of snowmobile trails with, at most, only a few local people enjoying the ride. However, on the weekend, it's "bumper to bumper" snowmobiles.... somehow, they all seem to disappear about 3 or 4 PM on Sunday

I can say that even with the delayed spring this year, I'm glad my DW talked me into coming back up north.....
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Old 04-12-2013, 02:48 AM   #10
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[QUOTE=JRTJH

I can't begin to tell you how much money Keystone pays the dealer to be the "final quality inspector" AND "final repair tech" on each RV, but I've heard figures from $750 to well over $1000 per unit.

There is a "catch 22" in that program however. If the dealer does the inspection properly and repairs the damage/factory mistakes during that inspection, they have been paid for the maintenance "up front" and can only bill for parts/supplies used. HOWEVER: if they "halfway do the inspection, when you bring it back for warranty work, they can bill for labor AND parts/supplies. So, as the dealer, they can "squeeze the lemon a bit more" if they push it out without fixing everything.

Now, you've got to ask yourself, "Would my dealer maniuplate me that way?".[/QUOTE]

This is so true. This is the reason why all buyers should not sign the paperwork until a thorough PDI has been performed (by the buyer), which inludes testing all systems (inluding function testing of holding tanks, valves, plumbing, etc.). It is unfortunate that we as buyers have to go to such lengths to receive a quality tested rig, butthis is the way it is. This is typical throughout the industry, not just Keystone.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:22 AM   #11
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This is so true. ... This is typical throughout the industry, not just Keystone. Steve
That is absolutely true. Over the years, I think the worst buying experience I had was with Airstream. Supposedly the "cadillac" of RV's. The bottom fell out of the electrical cord storage compartment on the rear bumper, and on the way back to the dealer to have that repaired (less than an hour after our PDI) as we turned into the dealership, the table in front of the sofa came loose from the wall and ripped the fabric on the sofa and damaged the carpet as well. The dealer's comment: "Oh well, at least you got it back here so we could fix it" I never heard even one apology or comment of concern that our brand new "luxury" RV was literally falling apart. That was a big dealership in south Los Angeles, less than 10 miles from the factory.

I think the best dealer service we've had has been with this RV. Even though it's probably the "least expensive" in terms of where the brand sits on the RV scale, the dealership has been right there, checking on how things went during the first couple of months, and when we're in the store at the dealership, the salesman and owner have always said hello and asked if things are going well. Fortunately, the answer is "things are great" I think partly because they did their job correctly BEFORE I towed it home the first time.
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Old 05-07-2013, 07:54 PM   #12
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All repaired - restart the shakedown trip

Picked up our repaired 5ver a couple weeks ago, and wanted to test out the fixes, but it's been real rainy here for the past 2 weeks. Didn't see much point in going out in bad weather.

Ready for a new shakedown run. Want to test and check before a long weekend on Memorial day, and then again the week after. Thanks for the comments on inspection - and inform everyone they need to do the same before signing on the dotted line - at least in our case, it would have saved 2 trips back to the dealer.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:59 AM   #13
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Wow, I am so glad my 2012 Cougar High Country 299RKS was trouble-free (for a while). After some use we had the thermostat and some fastenings replaced/repaired. Got 5000 miles on it now.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:40 PM   #14
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Pmedic4,

You said you're satisfied with the dealer's service department, but in reality, they are the reason you're having all the issues that you've experienced. Each and every one of those problems is directly related to the service department NOT doing a proper Pre Delivery Service and Inspection. If they had done what Keystone paid them to do (properly check the function on each system and component) you would not be having any of the problems you're facing. It's the dealer's responsibility to functionally check each and every system in the RV, electric, fresh water, waste water, LP gas, water heater, refrigerator, lighting, awning, slides, furniture, windows, doors, locks, the list goes on and on. If the dealer had done a proper PDI, and possibly if you'd have run the PDI checklist, all of these would have been caught before you left the dealership.

As for the plumbing leaks around the waste tanks, from what you describe, it sounds more like freeze damage than improper installation. Do some checking around the split plumbing runs and you'll probably find it's not the glue joints rather the pipes that are split. The dealer should have caught all that before they even called you to come pick it up.

Let's hope they get it fixed and you can start camping without issues soon.
Very good point!
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:29 PM   #15
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I guess I'm truly one of the lucky ones. I bought my trailer from a dealer in League City, and I didn't know what a PDI was, let alone do one. The "PDI" consisted of one of their techs walking us through the location of items and how to operate them. I suppose the flag should have been the push to sell the extended warranty, fabric protection etc., which I declined. I also never heard from anyone at the dealership after I pulled it off the lot. One of the letters was missing on the Outback side decal. I was told they would order me one, but I never heard from them. I called Keystone and they sent me an entire decal.
Except for one roof related issue which my local dealer(non-selling) repaired under warranty, my trailer has been relatively problem free. There have been minor issues and I've repaired/rebuilt some things myself simply because I have the tools and ability to do it, like rebuilding drawer slides and taping air conditioner ducting. Some are not able to do that, and it shouldn't be expected of them. For what we pay, we shouldn't have to deal with more than minor issues. All things considered, I'm unlikely to buy from again or recommend that particular dealer, and based on others poor response from Keystone Customer Service, and to some extent mine, I'm unlikely to buy another Keystone trailer. That said, mine seems to be holding up well, and we will probably keep it for a while.
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