2013 Cougar Master Control Panel Problem - Page 2

Bob Landry · 02-11-2013, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x96mnn

I was of the belief we price ourselves into the type of service we get in beating down the dealers or searching for the best price from a dealer who knows they will never see us again.

I am wrong though with that thinking and its not the case for all RV dealers but feel it is the case for a large number of them and it almost seems to be the culture. They remind me of the used car salesman who runs that corner lot selling 15 year old cars you see in the movies. You know the one who would sell his mother a car that won't make it a mile then pretend he does not know her.

I do not direct this to all dealers and know some people on here have great dealers. I grade my current dealer a B+ to A- which is a passing grade. Not sure if they get that because my expectations on dealers are now low or they deserve it lol.

I'm not sure that is the main reason. First, regardless of what kind of deal we get or discounts, or whatever, the dealer is not going to let himself get talked down to a price that causes him to lose money on a sale. The exception would be an intentional loss leader, and I doubt that happens in the RV business, since most buyers know what they are looking for and that dealer gets one shot at making a sale.

I would submit that the amount of money moving in the RV business relative to the overall economy is relatively small and that the RV business is soft. it's a luxury item and not in great demand. That's obvious to me when I drive by the dealer and see hundred of units sitting on his lot. Add to that the number of people who are keeping and fixing older units because of the economy is growing. I see this in the marine industry and it's because it's a recreational industry and people are having less and less discretionary money to spend.

That said, I'm always amazed at the posts I read from owners who are unable to get service from a non-selling dealer. I wish I could make it on parts and equipment sales only, but I rely on service for most of my revenue and I'm not about to walk away from money on the table, regardless of who sold the equipment, and I just can't understand people who do. I'm not in business to send work to other shops.

Bob Landry · 02-11-2013, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDavis

At this point, I can't fault my dealer at all. This is the second RV I've bought from this dealer with multiple support items in between times dating back to 2000. I haven't even taken the unit back to the dealer yet because how does he track down a problem that he can't reproduce? I did call them when it first happened and they contacted Keystone who referred them to the manufacturer of the panel but he got no solution or even admission of a problem from either. At this point, this control panel is a relatively new item and I honestly don't think Keystone knows why it's happening. Since it's happening to more than one owner, I don't know if just replacing the panel would correct the problem or not. A new panel may just bring the same problem with it as long as they haven't been able to isolate the cause and correct it.

Because of the inconsistency of the error, I'm still leaning toward a software code problem on a prom chip somewhere. Been messing with computers since the early '80s. I'm not a professional IT person but I did teach myself a couple of programming languages a long time ago and have seen this type of situation in programmed electronics many times from computer operating systems (anyone remember Windows 3.0?) to cell phones, cordless phones, etc. where they would get "lost" and the only solution was to remove power and let them reset. I'm not writing off a mechanical problem but it just seems that if it were mechanical, you'd be able to find the right combination to reproduce the error. Mine seems to happen the majority of the time when the trailer is just setting with no electrical devices being used at all other than the inverter. Frustrating.

Randy

What is going to make this difficult to diagnose for the average shop tech is that these panels are controlled by microprocessors and use electronic switching and latching. Any leakage in a semiconductor will cause unpredictable results and the panel maker knows that, a shop tech will not.

Keystone is certainly not responsible for fixing your problem. They merely build the trailer using the aftermarket products purchased by them. As far as not faulting your dealer, I have to disagree with that. I think if the dealer takes a repair job into his shop, he has the responsibility to try to repair it, even if it means spending some time on the phone with the factory reps or the equipment. At the very least he should pull the panel and send it to the factory for diagnoses and repair. That does represent some down time on the trailer, but if you are on the road with an inoperative power distribution system, you are basically down anyway. If they can not find the problem, they should replace it, return it to the dealer for reinstallation and pay the dealer. That's how warranties work Anything less IMHO, is unacceptable.

At this point, I would be in direct contact with the manufacturer of the panel since it is still under warranty, and work through them. At the very least, you need to begin creating a paper trail if you have not done so and document emails and telephone conversations with names and dates so that if your warranty runs out and the issue is still unresolved, you have some recourse. Without that paper trail, it will roll down to "you said, they said". and you are pretty much sunk.

REDavis · 02-11-2013, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Landry

Keystone is certainly not responsible for fixing your problem. They merely build the trailer using the aftermarket products purchased by them. As far as not faulting your dealer, I have to disagree with that. I think if the dealer takes a repair job into his shop, he has the responsibility to try to repair it, even if it means spending some time on the phone with the factory reps or the equipment. At the very least he should pull the panel and send it to the factory for diagnoses and repair. If they can not find the problem, they should replace it, return it to the dealer for reinstallation and pay the dealer. That's how warranties work Anything less IMHO, is unacceptable.

At this point, I would be in direct contact with the manufacturer of the panel since it is still under warranty, and work through them. At the very least, you need to begin creating a paper trail so that if your warranty runs out and the issue is still unresolved, you have some recourse. Without that paper trail, it will roll down to "you said, they said". and you are pretty much sunk.

And I'll have to disagree with that. Once I can prove there is a problem, Keystone is definitely responsible for repairing it and it's up to them to recover their expenses from the component manufacturer. This isn't like a freestanding add-on like a television, this is an integral part of the trailer itself. No different than a vehicle manufacturer being responsible for a headlight assembly that may have been provided by a third party manufacturer. If it's part of the "whole", it's covered by the vehicle warranty and the consumer isn't required to track down every component manufacturer to get satisfaction. The biggest problem at this time is that I can't "prove" there's a problem because I can't recreate the error.

And I'm not worried about the warranty running out as I purchased an extended warranty that covers everything that was on the trailer when purchased out to 7 years.

Randy

**JRTJH** · 02-11-2013, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDavis

And I'll have to disagree with that. Once I can prove there is a problem, Keystone is definitely responsible for repairing it and it's up to them to recover their expenses from the component manufacturer. This isn't like a freestanding add-on like a television, this is an integral part of the trailer itself. No different than a vehicle manufacturer being responsible for a headlight assembly that may have been provided by a third party manufacturer. If it's part of the "whole", it's covered by the vehicle warranty and the consumer isn't required to track down every component manufacturer to get satisfaction. The biggest problem at this time is that I can't "prove" there's a problem because I can't recreate the error.

And I'm not worried about the warranty running out as I purchased an extended warranty that covers everything that was on the trailer when purchased out to 7 years.

Randy

Whether it's Keystone's responsibility, the dealer's responsibility or the component maker's responsiblity, the fact remains that it doesn't work properly. It's frustrating to buy something and not be able to get it to work reliably. Double the frustration when you take it in to get repaired and it won't "fail" so it can be diagnosed and repaired.

As for a complex electronic module, I don't knoww of a dealer anywhere who actually "opens them up and replaces internal components" They pull and replace the entire item. So, if it doesn't work, you take it in, they flip the switch and it works, they are going to document, "Could not duplicate customer complaint" seal it up and call you to come pick up your trailer. When this happens more than a couple of times, it then becomes the dealer's responsibility to go further with his troubleshooting. If need be, as was stated earlier, pull the box and send it to the manufacturer for them to troubleshoot. I'd be seriously talking to the dealer's service manager about pulling a unit off the shelf, or replacing it with a known good unit from another trailer and trying to determine if it is the unit or the trailer interface.

As for extended warranty, if it's like most, there is a deductible to be met before the "insurance company" pays anything on the warranty. So, you could be out several hundred to several thousand if the deductible is, let's say, $500 and they keep charging $275 every time you bring it in because "it's still not working right"

I'd push the dealer to resolve the problem or contact the manufacturer of the module and talk to them directly.

As an "afterthought", if nothing else works to get it repaired/replaced, a "well placed" test meter probe between a 12VDC source and a fragile electronic PROM or ROM will cause it to stop working completely and forever. That would, if nothing else, cause a "permanent failure" and whether it's associated with the current problem or not, would lead to the replacement of the component for the "induced failure" Not completley "above board" ? Probably, but at the same time, it's not working and needs to be repaired or replaced already.........

If it were mine, I would want it repaired during the Keystone warranty period, not later on when I've got to argue with aftermarket extended warranty claims or with the manufacturer. As you said, it's Keystone's responsibility to repair it during the first year, so I'd be telling the dealer, "Get'er done"

Bob Landry · 02-11-2013, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Whether it's Keystone's responsibility, the dealer's responsibility or the component maker's responsiblity, the fact remains that it doesn't work properly. It's frustrating to buy something and not be able to get it to work reliably. Double the frustration when you take it in to get repaired and it won't "fail" so it can be diagnosed and repaired.

As for a complex electronic module, I don't knoww of a dealer anywhere who actually "opens them up and replaces internal components" They pull and replace the entire item. So, if it doesn't work, you take it in, they flip the switch and it works, they are going to document, "Could not duplicate customer complaint" seal it up and call you to come pick up your trailer. When this happens more than a couple of times, it then becomes the dealer's responsibility to go further with his troubleshooting. If need be, as was stated earlier, pull the box and send it to the manufacturer for them to troubleshoot. I'd be seriously talking to the dealer's service manager about pulling a unit off the shelf, or replacing it with a known good unit from another trailer and trying to determine if it is the unit or the trailer interface.

As for extended warranty, if it's like most, there is a deductible to be met before the "insurance company" pays anything on the warranty. So, you could be out several hundred to several thousand if the deductible is, let's say, $500 and they keep charging $275 every time you bring it in because "it's still not working right"

I'd push the dealer to resolve the problem or contact the manufacturer of the module and talk to them directly.

As an "afterthought", if nothing else works to get it repaired/replaced, a "well placed" test meter probe between a 12VDC source and a fragile electronic PROM or ROM will cause it to stop working completely and forever. That would, if nothing else, cause a "permanent failure" and whether it's associated with the current problem or not, would lead to the replacement of the component for the "induced failure" Not completley "above board" ? Probably, but at the same time, it's not working and needs to be repaired or replaced already.........

If it were mine, I would want it repaired during the Keystone warranty period, not later on when I've got to argue with aftermarket extended warranty claims or with the manufacturer. As you said, it's Keystone's responsibility to repair it during the first year, so I'd be telling the dealer, "Get'er done"

Well put, and that was my point. Someone needs to belly up and fix the owner's problem. The extended warranty people are not going to even talk to this guy while the trailer is still under manufacturers warranty and that's why he needs to get aggressive and make someone take ownership of this problem. As far as extended warranties, they need to be read carefully, especially if it's by a third party vendor . I also deal with warranty companies frequently and there can be issues. Some of them offer very basic coverage, and some attach some interesting stipulations. I'm not saying that there are not some good policies out there, there are, but you really need to read them before plunking down any money.

My other point was that by now the dealer should be pulling the box and sending it to the factory for evaluation instead of kicking the can down the road. He's going to get paid, either by Keystone or the panel manufacturer, so I'm really surprised at his reluctance to do this unless the service manager is incompetent or just doesn't care.

MarkS · 03-05-2013, 01:45 PM

Did this ever get resolved?

mustang94 · 03-09-2013, 05:58 PM

This is the exact same problem as mine. I have been pulling the number 5 fuse out and putting it back in. Called Keystone a few times and they sent me a 3 page pamplet just for the panel dated 2-18-2013. The first thing it says and I quote
"Important Operational Note.... Operate only one function at a time. Hitting multiple buttons without allowing time for each function to operate could cause the panel to "Lock-up". To "Unlock", disconnect Shore Cord and Battery for approximately 60 Seconds, reconnect."
Not sure if this will help but I have played with mine so much and cant get it to quit or act up when I want it to. But I will make sure from now on I only have one finger up there at a time.
Oh and my panel has been replaced by the dealer the same day we bought it and acted up again 3 hours later when we got home.

coastrider · 03-28-2013, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDavis

Nope, haven't taken anything apart and probably won't. Not only is it all brand new and covered under warranty but I purchased the extended warranty out to 7 years. If it becomes too big of a problem, I'll just let Keystone figure it out.

On that note, talked with a Keystone tech. I had the battery disconnected at the switch and was only on house power when the bottom half of the panel quit working. Tech suggested that the transformer may be cutting off the panel if it sensed a voltage drop from the batteries so I re-engaged the batteries and then the top half of the panel quit working. Go figure. Pulling fuses (or disconnecting the batteries again) got the top half working again. May just be time to tell Keystone to fix it, one way or the other.

REDavis, I just read your post about the Master Control Panel issue you had with your Cougar. I just purchased a "new from the factory" 325SRX and it arrived at the dealer with a bad panel. Initially only the main slide would not retract from the panel and all the rest of the panel worked OK, but as I am waiting for the new panel to installed by the dealer, the main ceiling light button no longer works either. This must be an issue with the new control panels (according to the dealer) that Keystone has gone to.

coastrider · 03-28-2013, 04:56 PM

mustang94 & REDavis, this forum is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I took your advice about disconnecting shore power and turning off the battery then restoring power. It fixed my issue with the overhead ceiling light no longer coming on, but the panel main slide retract still not working and probably still needs the whole panel replaced. But your suggestions will be invaluable when the new panel starts acting up as well. THANKS!!

jkb610 · 03-29-2013, 10:54 AM

Update with my panel...
The 2nd and 3rd row on mine will quit working after about 3-4 weeks hooked up to power. unplugging the shore cord and turning the battery disconnect off then back on seems to fix my panel again, Just as Keystone said to try as well as others have suggested.

They also sent me the 3 page user guide on the panel. Gave me the same story of the voltage drop. Problem is, My 5th wheel was plugged in with out being used and on consistent power and it still dropped?? I made the suggestion of maybe the converter isn't working properly to regulate the voltage when charging the batteries??
I don't know, just throwing out things now

I made a video of the panel not working and am going to send to Keystone. Not sure what that will resolve but we will see. I'm still having a big issue with the dealer I bought it from of not dealing with this or even caring about it, so that's why I'm trying to work directly with Keystone.

I don't know what else to do, but this cant be a norm to deal with in my opionin

Spork · 03-31-2013, 12:29 PM

Well, at least I'm not alone....

I have been fighting the good fight since Sept. Exactly the same story here except mine likes to kill the 2nd and 3rd rows. For the first time on Friday it killed the 4th and 5th. I have been in phone conferences with Cougar engineers, management and the engineers from the company that makes the panel. I am on my 3rd panel. I love the camper except this whole panel problem. I have talked with a couple lawyers that say that we could sue them to take it back being that there is no Lemon Law for Michigan but there is a federal lemon law. I really don't want to have to do that. I just want them to make it right or give me another one. If they would just make a decent attempt at diagnosing it I would be happier but they keep putting boards in it like magically it will be fixed. Right now I am fighting for a converter. I think that the problem is not a lack of power but a spike in power causing an over-voltage situation. I spent 3 hours today monitoring it but didn't have a fault or a change in voltage.

**JRTJH** · 04-01-2013, 08:06 AM

Spork,

First of all, welcome to the forum. We're happy that you decided to join our group.

Now, as for your control panel problem. If you look at the number of problems others are having, you'll quickly find that it's not "your RV' alone that's having the problem. Others are also trying to get their RV repaired with much the same issues as you're having. Replacing the panel hasn't helped, replacing the RV may well not get you the resolution you're looking for. It may be an "under-engineered" problem, a "failure to determine reliability" problem or it may be that the control panel "innerds" are an Edsel and just won't make it in the competetive RV business. Many "conveniences" come and go in the RV world. This panel may prove to be one of those that doesn't make it. How owners of RV's with the panel installed will get resolution remains a question.... I hope you get it resloved

Bob Landry · 04-01-2013, 08:29 AM

I'm going to have to question the suitability of these panels for this particular application. Sea Ray tried the touch panels in a couple of their high end cruisers and they turned out to be as problematic as the units being discussed here, and the marine environment is possibly harsher than the RV one.
These panels along with operating on membrane touch pads, also are controlled by microprocessors and electronic relays and latching. All of this is susceptible to voltage surge, voltage drop, spikes, electrical line noise, and everything else that can affect what is basically a piece of computer controlled equipment. I'm not justifying the performance of the panels being discussed here, just that this type of equipment just may not be suited for this particular application and there may not be a solution. This is certainly not what the posters with issues want to hear, but it may just be a hard fact, and the problem may not be resolvable by means other than to replace the panels with manual breaker type controls. Sometimes the latest isn't always the greatest and unfortunately with no information with which to arm themselves, the walk-in buyer just isn't going to know anything but to accept that the trailer will function as represented.

Spork · 04-02-2013, 10:19 AM

Well, I have far too much effort into something that I should be enjoying. At this point I either want them to buy it back or give me a different model that does not have the touch panel... I would like to enjoy this camping season unlike last years...

mustang94 · 04-07-2013, 02:40 PM

OK we went out for 3 days and this happened again 2 times. I am going to buy a rocker switch and install it right above the main panel. I will find the power wire running to the fuse box (fuse#5). Next time it happens all I have to do is turn the rocker switch off and then back on. Just like removing the fuse....

ausarb · 05-03-2013, 09:11 PM

I just took delivery of a new 2013 324RLB on May 2nd and have the same problem and same "workaround". Rows 2 and 3 stop working until I cycle the power.

The worst part of this is that I haven't seen any post/reply on this thread where the problem was fixed which tells me Keystone has no idea yet. Hopefully since this is happening to many people and is well documented (i.e this thread) we'll get some kind of resolution eventually. The tech at my dealer (spoke to on the phone as he's 1K miles away) was familiar with the problem and he made it sound like replacing the panel if it kept acting up would be a good solution, but this thread makes me think otherwise.

My trailer has been sitting in front of my house since I took delivery and I've also got a Progressive Industries EMS unit installed to guard against voltage issues, which I don't have. An earlier post mentioned that it may be the 12V converter. I suppose I could try shutting off the shore power and just run off the battery, using a battery charger to keep it going and see how long it lasts that way. Problematic as I've got to move it to storage tomorrow.

When we were deciding on which trailer to get, no where in the process did we care one hoot about the fancy membrane control panel versus the older rocker style switch. Not only is it more complex (which means less reliable) I dislike its audible queues instead of the older tactile feedback of a rocker switch.

Bob Landry · 05-04-2013, 04:16 AM

Just out of curiosity, who manufactures the panel?

Bugle Boy · 05-04-2013, 07:13 AM

As we await delivery of our new 2013 Cougar 31RKS in the next week or so it is very discouraging to read this thread. Will our new Cougar have this panel?

ausarb · 05-04-2013, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugle Boy

As we await delivery of our new 2013 Cougar 31RKS in the next week or so it is very discouraging to read this thread. Will our new Cougar have this panel?

I would assume so. I would call the dealer and tell them to specifically check for this. It should be left on shore power for 48 hours and all buttons continue to work.

For reference, our trailer was "born" around October 2012 and lots of the parts have mfg dates of 8/2012 (i.e. marked on the pin box and axles). If yours works (please keep us updated!) and is newer than this, perhaps they've worked those kinks out. I'm going to call my dealer Monday to try to get additional details.

Bugle Boy · 05-04-2013, 09:54 AM

Checked the brochure and sad to say our new Cougar will have this panel. I have an intense dislike for these type panels. We have had a garden tractor, kitchen range and washing machine that have these panels. All have failed multiple times. They have no long term durability.

Why would they place these in an RV. They are not rugged. Give me the rocker switched any day.

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