2013 Cougar Master Control Panel Problem

REDavis · 11-27-2012, 07:12 PM

We just traded in our 2003 Mountaineer TT for a 2013 Cougar 5th whl. Twice now, the bottom half of the master control panel http://www.kansascas.com/images/Cougar/IMG_377877.JPG has stopped working. No slide-out control or awning control. All items still work from the remote but not from the control panel. Upper half of the panel, lights, water pump, hot water tank, etc. still work from the panel.

First time, I recycled the master 50 amp breaker and everything started working again. Second time, I played a little smarter and cycled breakers one at a time and found the 3rd breaker from the left in the breaker center shut down the control panel and it started working again. It appears to be much like having to do a hard reset on a computer. Powering down gets it working again but not sure why it's going haywire to start with. Have any of you experienced such a problem and if so, did you discover what was going on and how did you correct the problem.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Randy

Mike L123 · 12-03-2012, 07:58 PM

Just out of curiosity, did you take the face of the panel off to have a look see at the wiring? Only 6 screws to pull out and then gently pull straight forward. There is lots of room allowed in the wires so you can't wreck it, just be careful. I had to take ours off just to change the connections on the back of the rocker switches as they were hooked up, at least in my opinion, in a rather backward and awkward manner.

Just see if there are any loose wires or something not quite grounded properly. We have never had a problem such as yours, thankfully, and we wish you luck in resolving this.

Cheers!

Mike and Carol

REDavis · 12-03-2012, 09:51 PM

Nope, haven't taken anything apart and probably won't. Not only is it all brand new and covered under warranty but I purchased the extended warranty out to 7 years. If it becomes too big of a problem, I'll just let Keystone figure it out.

On that note, talked with a Keystone tech. I had the battery disconnected at the switch and was only on house power when the bottom half of the panel quit working. Tech suggested that the transformer may be cutting off the panel if it sensed a voltage drop from the batteries so I re-engaged the batteries and then the top half of the panel quit working. Go figure. Pulling fuses (or disconnecting the batteries again) got the top half working again. May just be time to tell Keystone to fix it, one way or the other.

Mike L123 · 12-03-2012, 11:03 PM

yup, for sure I would let Keystone look after it in light of the battery/house power weirdness. Definitely sounds like something was wired improperly. Good luck with this.

Mike

**JRTJH** · 12-04-2012, 05:46 AM

My concern would be loose wires somewhere in the panel. If they start "arcing and sparking" out in the woods somewhere and start a fire......

I'd say it's definitely time to get Keystone to look at the panel and find the problem. Better to be safe and secure than to run the risk of a problem in a campground.

Bob Landry · 12-04-2012, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDavis

Nope, haven't taken anything apart and probably won't. Not only is it all brand new and covered under warranty but I purchased the extended warranty out to 7 years. If it becomes too big of a problem, I'll just let Keystone figure it out.

On that note, talked with a Keystone tech. I had the battery disconnected at the switch and was only on house power when the bottom half of the panel quit working. Tech suggested that the transformer may be cutting off the panel if it sensed a voltage drop from the batteries so I re-engaged the batteries and then the top half of the panel quit working. Go figure. Pulling fuses (or disconnecting the batteries again) got the top half working again. May just be time to tell Keystone to fix it, one way or the other.

The Keystone 'tech" that you spoke with doesn't understand converters. When you are connected to shore power, the battery does noting as far as powering anything. You could turn it off or disconnect it and the effect is zero. All 12V power is provided by the converter. The AC portion of your electrical panel is exactly like the C/B panel in a stick house. it gets an AC feed and distributes power to the individual circuit breakers, microwave, outlets, converter, etc.. There is no electronics for control, only hard wired to the AC section. One of those A/C breakers is going to feed the DC portion of the converter, which in turn is going to create 12V to feed all of the DC fuses/circuits. There is quite a bit of circuitry in the DC converter that rectifies, filters, operates relays, etc and that is where your problem is. Some component in the converter is "latching " in an off state, and when you remove power to it by turning off the breaker or pulling a fuse, it resets to it's default condition. I recommend you let the dealer handle it. if you are not familiar with electrical/electronic troubleshooting, you'll likely end up chasing your tail and getting a lot of bad information from people who also don't know much about it.

**hankpage** · 12-04-2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by REDavis

We just traded in our 2003 Mountaineer TT for a 2013 Cougar 5th whl. Twice now, the bottom half of the master control panel http://www.kansascas.com/images/Cougar/IMG_377877.JPG has stopped working. No slide-out control or awning control. All items still work from the remote but not from the control panel. Upper half of the panel, lights, water pump, hot water tank, etc. still work from the panel.

First time, I recycled the master 50 amp breaker and everything started working again. Second time, I played a little smarter and cycled breakers one at a time and found the 3rd breaker from the left in the breaker center shut down the control panel and it started working again. It appears to be much like having to do a hard reset on a computer. Powering down gets it working again but not sure why it's going haywire to start with. Have any of you experienced such a problem and if so, did you discover what was going on and how did you correct the problem.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Randy

Bob, If you take a look at the photo that Randy provided a link to you will see that the panel he is talking about is nothing like the power centers in our trailers. Sure looks like a lot of electronics to me and I would suspect the interface between the remote and on-board controls as the culprit. Then I would scream HELP! at my dealer and then hope they know what they are doing. JM2¢, Hank

REDavis · 12-04-2012, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hankpage

Bob, If you take a look at the photo that Randy provided a link to you will see that the panel he is talking about is nothing like the power centers in our trailers. Sure looks like a lot of electronics to me and I would suspect the interface between the remote and on-board controls as the culprit. Then I would scream HELP! at my dealer and then hope they know what they are doing. JM2¢, Hank

Hank,
You're exactly right. No mechanical switches. Not a touch screen like a cell phone. More like a membrane panel with, I'm guessing, cross wire contacts beneath the membrane. In any case, not something I'm willing to mess with when it's covered under warranty. According to the dealer, Keystone is aware of the situation but like all intermittent failures, it's difficult to diagnose when you never know exactly when it's going to happen. When I cycle the breaker to reset the panel, it may be days before it kicks out again. Maybe they should start putting an OBD port on these like a vehicle so they can trap a fault code to help track down the problem.

Randy

Martydonna · 01-12-2013, 04:49 PM

If you haven't already solved your problem. That panel uses 12 VDC and the if your panel gets below about 8 VDC it will start to shut down. If your just using the battery or you have your battery diconnect in off position, this might be what the cause is.

Marty.

REDavis · 01-13-2013, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martydonna

If you haven't already solved your problem. That panel uses 12 VDC and the if your panel gets below about 8 VDC it will start to shut down. If your just using the battery or you have your battery diconnect in off position, this might be what the cause is.

Marty.

Don't think that's the problem unless there are multiple failures as it happens in both conditions. If I have shore power and the batteries on and it happens, I either have to engage the battery disconnect and then cycle the breaker to the panel or I have to pull the 12v fuse that controls the panel to get the panel to reset. If I have the battery disconnect engaged and it happens, I only have to cycle the breaker to get it to reset.

Randy

jkb610 · 02-04-2013, 08:06 PM

What was the outcome of this. Did Keystone fix it?

I have a new Cougar with the same panel and a similar problem with little help from the Dealer I purchased from.

thanks

REDavis · 02-04-2013, 10:31 PM

Haven't done anything with it yet. In all fairness to Keystone and my dealer, I can't make the fault happen. It may go for a week without disconnecting, it may go for an hour. Always comes back up with power recycle. I'm actually hoping the thing will go down completely and then they can track the problem.

Randy

jkb610 · 02-07-2013, 07:39 PM

Same here,next time it happens ill video tape it maybe that will help.
Mine didn't do anything when i cycled the breakers, it took a few days to get it to work without power to it.

REDavis · 02-08-2013, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkb610

Same here,next time it happens ill video tape it maybe that will help.
Mine didn't do anything when i cycled the breakers, it took a few days to get it to work without power to it.

Did you have the batteries disconnected at the disconnect switch? On mine, if the batteries are connected, cycling the breaker does no good. You also have to pull the 12v fuse to the panel. If the batteries are disconnected at the disconnect switch, only cycling the breaker gets mine to re-engage.

Randy

jkb610 · 02-10-2013, 04:55 AM

No I didn't have the battery disconnect off. Ill try that if it happens again.
I talked to Keystone,and there best answer was to shut off everything and unplug main power cord and plug in again. Told them that's not right,and they didn't seem to care. I wanted it documented but even if it continued and went past warranty, they still wouldn't fix it. Great service

REDavis · 02-10-2013, 05:07 AM

Believe me, I wouldn't try and defend Keystone and if it ever quits working totally and won't re-engage while under warranty, they'd have no choice but to fix it or be open to a lawsuit. However, having worked on a lot of vehicles in the last 40 years, I can say with some certainty that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to track down a problem that you cannot recreate on a routine basis or has become permanent. I keep hoping that mine will fail completely so that they can determine the problem. In all honesty, the fact that recycling the power causes it to re-engage almost looks like a computer software problem in the panel.

Randy

jkb610 · 02-10-2013, 08:41 PM

I do agree and same here for the 40 years

and being an aircraft Mechanic for half of those I guess even just a little troubleshooting from my dealer would have been nice and not just say its a one time thing. I had to call Keystone myself to find out what might be going on after I found your post. I'm going to have it out for a few days next weekend and have a few ideas on what to try, and will let you know if i have any success. The only thing is mine are to not the same strips that went out as yours. In your Pic Mine are the 2nd and 3rd rows from the top that went out.

Bob Landry · 02-11-2013, 04:49 AM

I guess I'm trying to underhand Keystone's reasoning behind not just replacing the panel, especially since it is an intermittent problem on a complex piece of equipment and the average RV tech is not going to know how to troubleshoot it. I do a lot of warranty work in the marine industry, and unless their system is set up differently than ours, the cost of repair, both for the part and the labor eventually gets charged back to the manufacturer of the equipment, not the OEM builder. I guess it's because I have a great relationship with all of my OEM builders and equipment providers, but the bottom line is that we would never let a customer suffer with an unresolved problem while we argue about who is going to pay the bill. I run across intermittent problems all the time and in those cases, the manufacturer or the vendor provides the replacement, I get paid to put it in, customer sails off happy and we settle up later. That's my understanding of customer satisfaction and the way business should be conducted. Maybe it's different in the RV world, but I run my business on the idea that I can't afford a single unhappy customer because once I lose him, he never comes back.

x96mnn · 02-11-2013, 05:31 AM

I was of the belief we price ourselves into the type of service we get in beating down the dealers or searching for the best price from a dealer who knows they will never see us again.

I am wrong though with that thinking and its not the case for all RV dealers but feel it is the case for a large number of them and it almost seems to be the culture. They remind me of the used car salesman who runs that corner lot selling 15 year old cars you see in the movies. You know the one who would sell his mother a car that won't make it a mile then pretend he does not know her.

I do not direct this to all dealers and know some people on here have great dealers. I grade my current dealer a B+ to A- which is a passing grade. Not sure if they get that because my expectations on dealers are now low or they deserve it lol.

REDavis · 02-11-2013, 06:29 AM

At this point, I can't fault my dealer at all. This is the second RV I've bought from this dealer with multiple support items in between times dating back to 2000. I haven't even taken the unit back to the dealer yet because how does he track down a problem that he can't reproduce? I did call them when it first happened and they contacted Keystone who referred them to the manufacturer of the panel but he got no solution or even admission of a problem from either. At this point, this control panel is a relatively new item and I honestly don't think Keystone knows why it's happening. Since it's happening to more than one owner, I don't know if just replacing the panel would correct the problem or not. A new panel may just bring the same problem with it as long as they haven't been able to isolate the cause and correct it.

Because of the inconsistency of the error, I'm still leaning toward a software code problem on a prom chip somewhere. Been messing with computers since the early '80s. I'm not a professional IT person but I did teach myself a couple of programming languages a long time ago and have seen this type of situation in programmed electronics many times from computer operating systems (anyone remember Windows 3.0?) to cell phones, cordless phones, etc. where they would get "lost" and the only solution was to remove power and let them reset. I'm not writing off a mechanical problem but it just seems that if it were mechanical, you'd be able to find the right combination to reproduce the error. Mine seems to happen the majority of the time when the trailer is just setting with no electrical devices being used at all other than the inverter. Frustrating.

Randy

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