Need opinions: Is the 238ml too much TT for my TV

[RJ1]

I'm a newbie to the site and TT in general, so don't be too hard on me.

I'm looking at buying a 2015 Passport 238ml in the next 6 months, but I'm a little concerned it's a bit to much for my 2005 Nissan Pathfinder. I'm mostly concerned with the length of the TT with the Pathfinder having such a short wheel base. Anyway, here are the numbers, any input would be appreciated!

2005 Pathfinder
GVWR 6000lbs
Curb weight 4400lbs
Weight of all passengers 450lbs

Tow rating 6000lbs
Tongue weight 600lbs
GCWR 11,100lbs

Trailer details: 2015 238ml
Actual base weight 3840lbs
Claimed tongue weight 495lbs
GVWR 5400lbs
Length 24'11"

Given all this info I should technically be able to tow this, but I need some advice from people with experience towing this type of TT or TV
Thanks

[chuckster57]

Welcome to the forums.
First off, claimed tongue weight is before battery and propane is added, so figure your going to be real close to your 600 LB limit.

The GVWR of the trailer is also approaching your limit, but there is "wiggle room". Is your hitch rated at 600/6000 as a weight bearing or weight distributing?

It's not so much "can I tow" it as much as "can I SAFELY STOP" it.

[kellydog98]

I agree with CHUCKSTER57. It's the stopping that counts. Not only figure the battery and propane, but also any water on board. Pluse whatever you fill your rig with. Does the TT have trailer brakes? Good Luck and happy pulling.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by RJ1

I'm a newbie to the site and TT in general, so don't be too hard on me.

I'm looking at buying a 2015 Passport 238ml in the next 6 months, but I'm a little concerned it's a bit to much for my 2005 Nissan Pathfinder. I'm mostly concerned with the length of the TT with the Pathfinder having such a short wheel base. Anyway, here are the numbers, any input would be appreciated!

2005 Pathfinder
GVWR 6000lbs
Curb weight 4400lbs
Weight of all passengers 450lbs

Tow rating 6000lbs
Tongue weight 600lbs
GCWR 11,100lbs

Trailer details: 2015 238ml
Actual base weight 3840lbs
Claimed tongue weight 495lbs
GVWR 5400lbs
Length 24'11"

Given all this info I should technically be able to tow this, but I need some advice from people with experience towing this type of TT or TV
Thanks

If you take a look at the parts of your ratings I've bolded, you can see that as your tow vehicle weight increases, your trailer capability decreases. With an "empty" tow vehicle, you can tow a 6700 pound trailer, but at your Pathfinder's GVW (6000), you can only tow a trailer weighing 5100 pounds. That's below the GVW of the Passport. While you may never load it that heavy, it's quite easy to "get there" when planning for a "dry camping trip" where the water tank is full and a "few extras" are loaded in anticipation of being away for more than an overnight trip.

Also, consider your statement about passengers. If you're stating that the two adults are 450 pounds, that's a fairly consistent weight, but if you're including children in that weight, remember that they will continue to grow and in a few years, the 450 pounds can be closer to 700 or 800 pounds, depending on the number of children you're including. As children grow, so does the "insistence" of what toys they want to take along. A teddy bear will easily turn into a bike, wagon, motorcycle, etc, all of which add significant weight to the mix.

Tow stability in a bumper pull trailer depends largely on trailer weight and distance the ball is behind the axle. The further the ball is behind the axle, the greater force the trailer can exert to "push" the tow vehicle rear axle side to side. The heavier the trailer, the more force it can exert as well. That's why fifth wheels are more stable, they put all their "side to side" force directly over (not behind) the rear axle. Also, the longer the wheelbase, the more the tow vehicle can "resist" these side to side forces.

As for the concern you posed about the short wheelbase of your Pathfinder, it's 112", and the "generally accepted" wheelbase/trailer formula allows for a 20' trailer for the first 110" of wheelbase and 1 foot of trailer for each 4 inches of added wheelbase. The formula calls for a 130" wheelbase for a 25' trailer. So, yes, you're "short" in wheelbase for a 25' trailer, and may experience some issues with sway/controllability with a conventional weight distributing hitch. Typical add on sway controllers may not correct the problem and you may want to consider a hitch that more effectively controls sway.

There is some very good information given in the PDF that you can find at:
http://www.slaga.net/RV/How%20to%20Tow-version%202.pdf

[RJ1]

Thanks for the replies, good info.

I think I'll start looking at the 19ft TT again.

[Ken / Claudia]

I had several pathfinders and towed with them. The last being a 1990, towed a 14ft and 18 ft. trailers. I had a bolt on frame hitch and sway bar. They towed OK but, 35mph on any grade was common. Than those vehicles had a frame under the body, last I looked they went to unibody without a frame. I am not sure how or if you can add on a better hitch system with a unibody vehicle.

[Tbos]

238ML is a wonderful TT. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like its a good match for your TV. I tow mine with a GMC crew cab 4.8 V8 with a 3.23 rear end. The TT is 1000 lbs under max towing capabilities but it is real slow starting out, especially on hills. I suggest giving yourself plenty of margin. Have fun and enjoy whatever you get. 😃

[{tpc}]

Just to toss in my opinion on this as well. We have a 2300bh. We started with my wifes envoy, also a 6 cylinder. I asked around on some car forums, and looked what they were towing with the same vehicle. All said it could do it, but I'd need to add a tranny cooler, and that despite being able to do it, I wouldn't be happy about it.

They were correct. However, I was already committed to getting the TT, and we wanted to see how well the envoy would work, being in michigan on relatively flat land. I figured a new TV/daily driver would be in order if it didn't work out, at least for one of us.

The first trip we went to nearby CG, about 25 min away, in april. Towed fine, but it was just us (which is typical of our trips). 2nd trip, was up north a couple months later. 250-300 miles or so, but brought the kids with us this time. Much different trip, left in the middle of the afternoon, hot part of the day, lots of traffic. It made it there and back, but I stopped a few times because I didn't like the temps the tranny/engine were getting to.

I week later I bought a V8 Tahoe.

The envoy can do it, but it isn't happy about it. The tahoe is happy to do whatever. Pulling up steep grades isn't a problem for the vehicle, but you do have to monitor the tranny temps at bit when doing so, especially if the rpms are up for a decent amount of time. Actually maybe you don't have to monitor the temps as much as I do, but the truck is not brand new and its my daily, so I'm kinda anal about it.

We've been to nashville and back, a trip I wouldn't have even considered with the envoy.

[mpinco]

Your primary issue is the tow vehicle. Too small for anything larger than a pop-up. In addition relatively short wheel base. Don't even try altitude.

Start with vehicle, subtract 20% for altitude, and work your way backwards to trailer.

[RJ1]

I know it's not the ideal tow vehicle, but I'm sure it can handle more than a pop-up. I've towed 4500 lb utility trailers without any problem. I'm know that TT are a different beast and the 238ml is probably too much trailer base on the length of the trailer and the short wheel base of the pathfinder. I've been looking more at the smaller bunk models Cruise lite 195bh, Wildwood x lite 195bh, clipper 17bh, etc. All basically the same layout queen or double at the front, bunks at the back, weighs in around 3000 lbs empty. I've also looked at the micro lite 23lb and mini lite 2306 but they probably are in the same category as the 238ml.

Anyway, thanks again for the input.

[Tbos]

Good luck, let us know what you end up getting and how it goes. We wish you well.

[HappyCamperMN]

Originally Posted by RJ1

I know it's not the ideal tow vehicle, but I'm sure it can handle more than a pop-up. I've towed 4500 lb utility trailers without any problem. I'm know that TT are a different beast and the 238ml is probably too much trailer base on the length of the trailer and the short wheel base of the pathfinder. I've been looking more at the smaller bunk models Cruise lite 195bh, Wildwood x lite 195bh, clipper 17bh, etc. All basically the same layout queen or double at the front, bunks at the back, weighs in around 3000 lbs empty. I've also looked at the micro lite 23lb and mini lite 2306 but they probably are in the same category as the 238ml.

Anyway, thanks again for the input.

Have you tried looking at any hybrid trailers (travel trailer body, but with fold-out beds like a pop-up)? I honestly don't know if Keystone makes any, but before we ventured into Keystone land, I was looking seriously into a Rockwood Roo.

[RGene7001]

I tow slightly bigger Passport (almost 6000lb)with a vehicle of similar size and weight, although with more advanced powertrain design and favorable rear overhang/wheelbase ratio; my towbar is very short, the ball is essentially next to the bumper to maximize sway resistance. The performance is nothing short of amazing, ML is a true gold standard in medium duty towing, not a Compromise, as many people on the forums tend to believe. We have full trust in our combination safety and went thousands of miles cross country on several occasions.
You should be ok as well. You are unlikely to exceed GVWR with 238. Passport bunkhouses give you good opportunity to spread the load equally around the trailer so your hitch weight will increase very little -verified on the scales.Passports appear to be quite docile on the road, not very prone to sway to begin with. Of course, you will need weight distribution and sway control, possibly with 2 sway bars. I would suggest to inflate tires closer to the max pressure which can be found on the sidewall, it is usually much higher than what is recommended by the vehicle manufacturer.
Good luck

[Ken / Claudia]

Gene,
Just asking a question about your vehicle. Does it have a frame with the body built on top of a frame. I noticed while looking at SUVs at the auto shows in late 90s and found it seemed like most mid and small SUVs changed over from frame and body to unibody only(like most inported cars). While that was afew years ago. I noted that the tow ratings where lower on unibody' s vs the older vehicles with real frames under them. I always wondered if the lower tow ratings where due to the different way their built and could a class 4 or 5 hitch be mounted on a unibody. I am not sure if many know the difference but, it be a big differnce in the towing ability.

[JRTJH]

When introduced in 1997 the M class (branded ML because of a lawsuit) was a body on frame SUV. In 2005 the line was modified with introduction of the W-164 chassis which is a uni-body design. Current models introduced in 2012(W-166 chassis) continue the unitized body concept. The 3.5L (ML350) is the smallest of the gas engine models.

Like the Nissan, the Mercedes has "evolved" to a unitized chassis build and is no longer available as a "body on frame" vehicle.

According to the 2013 Mercedes brochure, the maximum hitch available as a "factory option" is a class III hitch rated at 7200 lbs.

The Hitch Store, e-Trailer, Camping World and Curt Hitch all list a class 3 receiver as the most heavy duty available for the ML series vehicle.

The Hitch Store lists the Reese receiver tow/weight limits as: Weight Carrying: 350/3500 Weight Distribution: 400/4000

Curt Hitch lists their receiver limits as: 350/3500 lbs and the category 3 receiver is the only one listed. Curt does not list a class 4 or 5 receiver nor do they list any heavy duty receivers.

[Ken / Claudia]

Thanks John,
A short story. 95 to 02 I was a Auto theft Det. Every year all local Dets. and insurnace investigaters got a pass to check out all new vehicles for VIN locations etc. without the public being present. Most guys climbed all over the vehicles checking them out. You need to get under many vehicles to read Vins or part numbers. We started seeing the uni-body change over in SUVs. Guessing that since most do not pull Rvs the factories changed over for better ride vs higher tow rating? I never seen how or what they bolted on the receiver type hitchs on that type of SUV.

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

Gene,
Just asking a question about your vehicle. Does it have a frame with the body built on top of a frame. I noticed while looking at SUVs at the auto shows in late 90s and found it seemed like most mid and small SUVs changed over from frame and body to unibody only(like most inpoted cars). While that was afew years ago. I noted that the tow ratings where lower on unibody' s vs the older vehicles with real frames under them. I always wondered if the lower tow ratings where due to the different way their built and could a class 4 or 5 hitch be mounted on a unibody. I am not sure if many know the difference but, it be a big differnce in the towing ability.

Good question. There is nothing inherently inferior in unibody structure, it depends on why and how designers go for it in each case. In most cases they do it to save weight and improve fuel economy while sacrificing capability. In the case of ML it was apparently done to increase rigidity, eliminate squeaks and rattles, improve ride and drivability and so on. The 2nd generation ML came not lighter but a few hundreds lb heavier than the full framed first generation, with fuel economy in the upper teens realistically. The thing looks small, but it weighs about the same as the Passport it pulls.
The real problem and challenge is to connect a strong enough hitch receiver to the unibody so it is able to work with WD hitch effectively, without bending, twisting or outright receiver failure. Canam RV has simple solution and established record in approaching this problem and they reinforced my factory receiver; 600 lb factory rating was effectively superseded by a much bigger number and there is piece of mind that the receiver will not break.
2005 Pathfinder still uses full frame but has independent suspension and decent transmission. It's similar to the Frontier and the hitch receiver should be ok to accommodate 238 Passport without reinforcement or receiver replacement

[Ken / Claudia]

Thanks Gene,
I know you have been towing with your current SUV for awhile and have stated how pleased you have been with the tv and tt set up. Sounds like Canam knows what their doing to make a safe hitch set up.