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Old 02-18-2012, 05:00 PM   #1
Deltamark
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199ML Tow Vehicle

Greetings,

I am seriously considering trading in my 2011 Gulf Stream Visa for a new Passport 199ML. With two extra-large dogs, my wife and I would really like to have the extra room from a slide-out.

I am aware that the dry weight of this trailer is just over 3,500 lbs. and the hitch weight is over 300 lbs. I'm also aware that loading the camper will add to that weight. My tow vehicle is a 2007 Saturn Vue with a listed towing capacity of 3,500 lbs. I added a trans cooler and have a heavy duty hitch with WD and an anti-sway bar. I know I am going against conventional thinking when considering towing this much weight, but I found some very interesting information at a Canadian RV dealer's web sight. See Can-Am RV.

A local RV dealer has also offered to let me try it out towing the 199 with my vehicle. I did see that someone else on this forum towed the 199 with an old Ford Thunderbird: ) I just wondered if anyone else has gone against the conventional numbers when towing this (or other) trailers?
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Old 02-18-2012, 06:22 PM   #2
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I’m sure there are plenty of people who go against conventional numbers. The rest of us don’t think kindly of them. Opinions aside, if you get into an accident with the setup you propose, prepared for a legal beatdown. No insurance company will forgive you, or even support you. That’s reason enough to not get the Passport.

EDIT: Although the shipping weight is 3518, that doesn’t include the propane tanks and the battery. Add yet another 100 lbs for that, much of that on the hitch. You’d be surprised how much heavier your mostly empty trailer is than the advertised dry weight. Nothing you can add to your Vue is going to make the trailer any lighter on your drivetrain, axles and unibody. And the stuff you’ve added take away from the Vue’s payload capacity.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:07 AM   #3
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Deltamark,

Please don't take this as anything other than what is intended which is a effort to convert you to a safety first mindset. The reason many on here don't take kindly to and often respond to questions of "I'm kinda on the border of my TV's capabilities" negatively is for you and your families safety along with that of the general public. Making the decision to try to safely tow something that is exceeding your TV's recommendations is kind of like taking a bungee cord ride over the river with a cord thats rated to support your weight with no room to spare. It might work but if anything unexpected goes wrong, it's not going to be pretty.

Too many things can happen, some of which you can control and some of which are totally out of your control, that may cause you to have to take avoidance type actions (hard braking, fast lane changes, swerving) on all kinds of different pavement types or weather conditions. To think that you can control everything and that you will never need that safety cushion is foolish. Being foolish with you and your families safety and risking seriously hurting or killing some innocent person (which might be one of us) who's only fault was traveling the same road as you is akin to drunk driving in my book.

Don't go into a bear fight with a knife, take a gun. Make sure you have MORE than enough TV for your trailer and you will be thankful that you did WHEN something happens. I know from first hand experience. In my 30 years towing horse and camping trailers, I've had objects drop from a truck in front of me at highways speeds that I had to swear instantly to avoid, I've had animals cross in front of me at night, I've had 2 trailer tire blow outs and 1 TV blowout. All were instantaneous reaction situations where I didn't have time to think "I better not swerve too violently because my TV may not be able to handle it safely". I just reacted and because my TV capabilities were always well over what they needed to be for the trailers I was towing, I always managed to handle those situations with little more damage than a raise in heart rate and on occasion, a change in underwear.

This is your decision for the time being but as is pointed out, at some point, it will be in someone else's hands to deal with if you make the wrong one. Police and lawyers don't take kindly to ignoring the law.
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Old 02-19-2012, 06:33 AM   #4
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Dry weight is a useless figure for the most part. The only one who really needs to know the dry weight is the guy who delivers the trailer from the factory to the dealer because that is all he has to tow.

The rest of us need to pay attention to GVWR. We all carry stuff: food, clothing, toiletries, extra camping items, etc., etc. At one time or another we all have to travel with full holding tanks. It's kinda pointless to go camping unless you've got some propane in the tanks. Typical estimates for the "stuff" we take with us run 1,000# or more.

A trailer that is 3,500# dry weight certainly has a GVWR of over 5,000# which is just too much for a Saturn Vue. My old Sunline had a GVWR of 5,500#, and we scaled the tongue weight at over 800#. While your Vue may be rated to pull up to 3,500#, it is not rated for that kind of tongue weight. Typically and especially with smaller cars, towing rating is usually referred to boats or other trailers with minimal tongue weights. The axles of that Vue are not designed for this kind of weight, and neither are the tires.

I am afraid you've asked the wrong group for validation of a bad, bad, idea. Frankly, I think you are already asking too much of the Vue. Stepping up to a larger trailer calls for a more competent tow vehicle.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:54 AM   #5
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Something I always mention when this topic comes up, is " It's not always what the vehicle can tow, it's what the vehicle can stop". The vehicles without factory towing setups usually have smaller rotors and break pads and that in it self is a dangerous setup IMO. God forbid one gets in a emergency stopping situation and one has to rely on these little breaks to suddenly stop all the weight to avoid an accident. Happy Camping, Sam
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:07 PM   #6
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All that weight is going to be hell on the transmission and the toung weight is going to be rough on the suspension.

Your SUV isn't even close to being able to tow that size load.
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Old 02-19-2012, 03:15 PM   #7
Deltamark
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199ml

Wow! Its obvious this is a hot topic, to say the least. I appreciate the concerns for safety. I certainly don't wish to jeopardize anyone's safety, including the general public, my wife's, nor my own. I can see that many members of this forum do not think kindly of those who don't follow prescribed conventions in towing approaches. In the past, I myself have always tried to subscribe to the notion of staying well under a vehicle's towing capacity, but began to wonder about it after seeing this web site. This RV Dealer states that they have been testing various configurations of tow vehicles and trailers for about 40 years and they do appear to be very safety conscious. I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind on this forum, but the videos of the tests are quite interesting.

After seeing the demonstration videos on the above web site, I have to wonder how vehicle manufacturers determine their tow capacities. OK, so assuming that I want the 199ML and will upgrade my tow vehicle to get one. One of the vehicles I'd consider is a 2010 V6 Toyota Highlander with a 5,000 lb. towing capacity. I have to wonder though, why is the Highlander's towing capacity more than 42% higher than the V6 Vue's, when;
a) the Highlander's horsepower is only about 8% higher than the Vue's
b) the Highlander's torque is is only about 2.5% higher than the Vue's
c) the Highlander's wheelbase is only 3% longer than the Vue's
I know there are other factors involved, but Im not sure they would account for a 1,500 lb. difference in towing capacity. If there is a specific formula to determine tow ratings, shouldn't there be a broader range of tow ratings to match the incremental differences in the specs of various vehicles?

There appears to be a good group of concerned and safety conscious RVers on this forum and I appreciate the feedback. Good luck to all!
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:06 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltamark View Post
Wow! Its obvious this is a hot topic, to say the least. I appreciate the concerns for safety. I certainly don't wish to jeopardize anyone's safety, including the general public, my wife's, nor my own. I can see that many members of this forum do not think kindly of those who don't follow prescribed conventions in towing approaches. In the past, I myself have always tried to subscribe to the notion of staying well under a vehicle's towing capacity, but began to wonder about it after seeing this web site. This RV Dealer states that they have been testing various configurations of tow vehicles and trailers for about 40 years and they do appear to be very safety conscious. I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind on this forum, but the videos of the tests are quite interesting.

After seeing the demonstration videos on the above web site, I have to wonder how vehicle manufacturers determine their tow capacities. OK, so assuming that I want the 199ML and will upgrade my tow vehicle to get one. One of the vehicles I'd consider is a 2010 V6 Toyota Highlander with a 5,000 lb. towing capacity. I have to wonder though, why is the Highlander's towing capacity more than 42% higher than the V6 Vue's, when;
a) the Highlander's horsepower is only about 8% higher than the Vue's
b) the Highlander's torque is is only about 2.5% higher than the Vue's
c) the Highlander's wheelbase is only 3% longer than the Vue's
I know there are other factors involved, but Im not sure they would account for a 1,500 lb. difference in towing capacity. If there is a specific formula to determine tow ratings, shouldn't there be a broader range of tow ratings to match the incremental differences in the specs of various vehicles?

There appears to be a good group of concerned and safety conscious RVers on this forum and I appreciate the feedback. Good luck to all!
Axle ratings, wheel and tire ratings, brake size and ratings. Pulling it is not always the problem .... carrying the weight and stopping it are most important. I may be able to get around and pass you on the up side of the hill, but I can't stop you from running into me on the down side.
Yes, manufacturers leave a little wiggle room on their capacities to cover their own .... well you know what I mean. But going over the limits set on a brand new vehicle with new tires is not the wisest choice you can make. I hope you make the right decision for the safety of your family and mine. JM2¢, Hank
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:43 AM   #9
BoosTT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltamark View Post
Wow! Its obvious this is a hot topic, to say the least. I appreciate the concerns for safety. I certainly don't wish to jeopardize anyone's safety, including the general public, my wife's, nor my own. I can see that many members of this forum do not think kindly of those who don't follow prescribed conventions in towing approaches. In the past, I myself have always tried to subscribe to the notion of staying well under a vehicle's towing capacity, but began to wonder about it after seeing this web site. This RV Dealer states that they have been testing various configurations of tow vehicles and trailers for about 40 years and they do appear to be very safety conscious. I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind on this forum, but the videos of the tests are quite interesting.

After seeing the demonstration videos on the above web site, I have to wonder how vehicle manufacturers determine their tow capacities. OK, so assuming that I want the 199ML and will upgrade my tow vehicle to get one. One of the vehicles I'd consider is a 2010 V6 Toyota Highlander with a 5,000 lb. towing capacity. I have to wonder though, why is the Highlander's towing capacity more than 42% higher than the V6 Vue's, when;
a) the Highlander's horsepower is only about 8% higher than the Vue's
b) the Highlander's torque is is only about 2.5% higher than the Vue's
c) the Highlander's wheelbase is only 3% longer than the Vue's
I know there are other factors involved, but Im not sure they would account for a 1,500 lb. difference in towing capacity. If there is a specific formula to determine tow ratings, shouldn't there be a broader range of tow ratings to match the incremental differences in the specs of various vehicles?

There appears to be a good group of concerned and safety conscious RVers on this forum and I appreciate the feedback. Good luck to all!
Gearing and suspension are important too and don't forget about the frame and wheels.

Example: Toyota FJ crusier and Tacoma both have the same 3.7L 237hp V6 and automatic trans. FJ is rated at 5k Lbs and Tacoma is rated at 6.5K Lbs.
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:05 AM   #10
SAABDOCTOR
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Just a thought. The concorde that crashed in to the hotel in france. Was onl 1000lbs over weight all was going welltill they had to sut one engine down so never say never as it can happen any time bigger better faster more!!!!! More tv is better thaan an oh s&*^%t.any day of the week. Nuff said sounds like you will and are going to do the right thing
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:08 PM   #11
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Your transmission will not thank you. Yes you installed the cooler, and yes in warm weather when it's working it's tail off it will get hot and eventually fail. Same for your engine. Not to mention your brakes.

Some people follow the 80% rule, ie stay within 80% of tongue weight, max vehicle weight and max combined vehicle weight. Me, I'm a 70% or less guy.

Yes, there's something called the max vehicle weight for the tow vehicle. Add the fuel, the tongue weight, all the crap in the back of the tow vehicle, the passengers and the dogs, and I am willing to bet that you will be OVER.

And yes, if ever, even through no fault of your own, you have a mishap and cream a Yugo with 6 people that don't have a pot to pee in it....you will enter a world of pain.

DO NOT TOW MORE THAN IS LEGAL, SAFE OR REASONABLE.......EVER.
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Old 10-10-2014, 11:41 AM   #12
blackartist
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199ML for MDX

I was planning to buy a 199ML. My TV is 2015 MDX with towing package. 5000lb towing capacity. After reading this old post I am afraid that my car may not safely handle 199ML. I am not planning to put 1000lb of cargo in it. Maybe 600lb at most. I will always tow it with empty tanks. Will MDX handle 199ML safely? Another trailer I am very interested in is KZ spree escape 196s. It is only less than 3000lb dry weight. But it can only carry 500lb of cargo and inside looks very cheap even though I know KZ has very good reliability and durability. Please advise if you can.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:14 PM   #13
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Lots of good info here...certainly safety is the biggest concern If you want to keep your TV, you might want to consider a Trailmanor. I have owned two over the years...they are a hard side pop-up. We liked the 3023 model, it tows at 23 and expands to 30. They are lighter than conventional, are lower than your TV, and still offer all the things you expect from a full size. I changed to the big Bullet because we needed more room with daughter's family and two big dogs. Take a look at their web site Trailmanor.com. Good Luck.
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Old 10-21-2014, 06:47 PM   #14
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What's the final outcome on this? Did you buy the 199 and what are you towing it with? FYI, I have a 2008 Equinox, pretty much the same as the Vue that year. It struggled with a large tent camper behind it.
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:03 AM   #15
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We have owned 2 Saturn VUEs and I would strongly recommend getting something different. Our first one was an 02 fwd 5spd and that thing fell apart on us. We got an 06 loaded awd automatic and the torque converter went at 38k along with needing the awd service done we had to get rid of it. They are not quality built vehicles and we have had bad luck with them. Just don't want to see other people having issues like we had with ours but we learned our lesson!
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Old 10-25-2014, 10:09 AM   #16
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Like others have said on here it's always better to have more tow vehicle than you need. I like the towing capacity on the Silverado and sierras. We have a 2012 reg cab short bed Silverado with the 5.3 and max cooling/tow package with the trailer brake controller. It can tow 8900. We are very happy with it. Our trailer weighs in with hitch weight at at 7600 and she tows it beautifully. We did tow with our VUE but like I said those vehicles are not adequate for towing!!
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