Box rail to trailer clearance problem

[Astroinfidel]

Hi everyone,

Well my joy at taking the dealer orientation before picking up my 2009 Keystone Everest was quickly ended yesterday when I tried to hook up. With my 2017 Ram 3500 with auto levelling, I have less than 3 inches between the top of the tailgate and the trailer. My retirement plans are flashing before my eyes as I may be watching them vanish. I am an astrophotographer, and planned to boondock in the southwest deserts 99% of the time. With this rig as it is, I don't dare leave the pavement.

I can raise the hitch by 4 more inches, which will give me about 6 to 6 1/2 inches between the tailgate and trailer, but fear this will not be enough for anything but the flattest pavement. The dealer won't or can't flip the axles or do any modifications for me. When I raise the hitch by the 4 available inches I am concerned that the already maxed out 6000 lb trailer axles will be unevenly loaded, with the rear axle likely overloaded. A 5th wheel tailgate won't help with the corners of the box. At this point I don't even want to drive it off the lot, but I already own it. Any I have already sold my house, so I am homeless without it. Any advice appreciated.
Dean

[dcg9381]

Dean, sounds like you already have a plan at the pin. The rest of it is around the axles.
There are a few ways to lift it:
1) Flip the axles, if not already flipped.
2) Block the axles, use high quality blocks and I'd recommend replacing the u-bolt hardware. Put a real shackle kit in while you're there (especially with your planned use). See: https://www.trailerblocks.com/
3) Take the trailer into a spring shop and have the existing springs re-arched. Again, I'd to the shackle kit at the same time.

If factory axles are overloaded and you're not sitting level, you can also go in and upgrade to 7k axles.


Your other worry with a new keystone should be the factory tires...

[Astroinfidel]

Thanks dcg,

Tires are new Sailun's so no worries there. The dealer said the trailer is "already sprung", so I took that to mean flipped. Any idea what blocking it up as described would cost? I can imagine all kinds of tire wear problems if the shop didn't do a really good job of realigning the axles after lifting it. Can most welding shops handle a job like that? And what about height? I have 2 a/c units, and wonder if that would put me too high. What would you say is the minimum clearance I can reasonably go with if I want to keep my tailgate intact? I don't plan to 4x4 with the rig, but I do have to be able to leave the pavement and deal with at least slightly uneven ground, or my retirement plans vanish.

Dean

[bobbecky]

I would suggest raising the hitch like you described, and then take it to a scale. Weigh the trailer with both axles on the scale while hitched up, then pull forward to have just the rear axle on the scale. You will then know how much weight is on both axles. If you are good, no worries. If not, then you need to investigate other options. With our rig, we are nose high while towing, not a lot, but still high. Once you get this situation resolved, then get the trailer measured, usually the front A/C is the high point.

[JRTJH]

In recent years the wall height on pickup beds has increased as has the actual bed height on trucks. That puts older trailers at a disadvantage when trying to hitch to a new truck. Trailer manufacturers are increasing the height of the pin on fifth wheels, but that doesn't help people with older trailers and newer trucks. They face decreased truck/trailer bed clearance and/or a pin high towing stance.

I'd suggest you first weigh the trailer to determine what weights are currently on your axles. You may find that the rear axle is not loaded heavier than the front axle. If they are fairly close, you may be OK with towing a bit "pin high". If, however, there is significantly more weight on the rear axle, you'll be faced with deciding how to raise the trailer. Depending on how much height increase you need, the Lippert Correct-track system is an optional alignment system that will increase the trailer frame height by 2". That may be enough to level your trailer/truck stance and also provide you with future alignment capability for the trailer axles. Cost for the Lippert system is about $250 and installation is about $150. It is a "do-it-yourself" install if you're mechanically inclined.

If that isn't enough height, and/or if you have a significantly heavier load on the rear axle and feel you need to level the trailer even more to correct that problem, then possibly blocks under the springs (over the axles) or new welded blocks on the lower part of the frame rails could be added. One member recently posted that he was quoted $500 to raise his trailer 3" at a spring/suspension shop in his town. That seemed a bit high for rates in northern Michigan but may be about right for the northwestern states.

If I were you, I'd discuss the problem with your dealership and if you're not satisfied with the answers, find a reputable trailer suspension shop and get their views. If different, you'll need to decide how to proceed but if both of them are telling you the same things, then you'll know the dealer and you are facing a problem that's going to be harder to resolve.

[dcg9381]

Originally Posted by Astroinfidel

Thanks dcg,
Any idea what blocking it up as described would cost? I can imagine all kinds of tire wear problems if the shop didn't do a really good job of realigning the axles after lifting it. Can most welding shops handle a job like that? And what about height? I have 2 a/c units, and wonder if that would put me too high. What would you say is the minimum clearance I can reasonably go with if I want to keep my tailgate intact? I don't plan to 4x4 with the rig, but I do have to be able to leave the pavement and deal with at least slightly uneven ground, or my retirement plans vanish.
Dean

1) I don't know what it would cost. If you provide the blocks and U-bolts, it'd probably take me 1-2 hours to do that job and most of it would be dealing with raising the trailer. That is, an RV shop, trailer shop, or spring shop could probably do it. Any place that deals with axles.

2) The trailer allignment should not change. The axles have centering pins as do the spring blocks. Many Keystones actually have a means of alligment (accu-track) - I don't know that many of us get around to having it checked.

3) I think my Carbon is at 13'2". Not sure what yours is at.

4) I dont know on tailgate clearance. It's a function of how much angle you're going to do with it and how long that trailer is from the pin to the axles. I can measure mine next time I'm out just for reference.


Last, Another option would be using 85 series tires instead of 80, if you have the deck clearance. I think this gets you around .75" of additional height (off the top of my head).

[captcolour]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is a good distance to have between tailgate and trailer for "normal" use?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by captcolour

Not to hijack the thread, but what is a good distance to have between tailgate and trailer for "normal" use?

If you mean the distance from the top of the bed rails to the bottom of the fifth wheel, when it's sitting level, a minimum of 6" is considered "about standard". I've seen some people with about 5" and others with around 8" and they all seem to be "in the ballpark".....

[CaptnJohn]

I'd consider John's suggestion to gain 2 more inches. I'm at 5" on my F350 and have not had a problem. I don't go off road but have been in a lot of nasty CGs and weird sites.

[Astroinfidel]

Thanks Cpt John,

That is reassuring to hear that 5 inches has been okay for you. I don't plan on going 4x4ing off road, but I do need the ability to get on and off the road over a reasonable amount of slope without scraping anything.

So the plan of attack to present to the dealer tomorrow is to raise the hitch the 4 inches available, and use a 3/4 lube plate. I can then use the "alternate ride height" on the Ram 3500 to drop it one inch. All that together will give me about 7 inches at the tailgate, and I can exhale again. But now the trailer will be nose high, so I will likely have to raise it 4 inches with a blocking kit as recommended. Hopefully the dealer can do this and I won't have to find a shop that can. If I do, can anyone recommend a trailer shop around Ottawa?

Blocking the axles 4 inches however might make me too high to be legal. And that I think will be solvable by removing the front a/c unit if necessary to bring the height back down.

Anyone give me a ball park figure to go from 6000 to 7000 lb axles in Ontario? I might think about that too, since the 6000 lb axles are going to be right at their load limit.

Thanks again for the help guys. It was a sleepless night last night, and the good clear advice I got here today showed me there is likely a solution available.

Dean

[CaptnJohn]

Your 6000 # axels are seen as sufficient for more than 12,000# as the landing gear or hitch always carry some weight. In case of a 5er 20% of GVWR. My loaded PW is at 17% and rides great!

[Astroinfidel]

Hi John,

The Everest is over 12000 empty, and 14000 GVWR, so the axles are pretty close to maxed out. I think I would feel better going off road with 7000 lb axles as extra insurance against bending one in the middle of nowhere.

[rhagfo]

There are many ways to gain 5er to bed rail clearance.

#1. as you plan on boon docking, I would suggest getting the desired number of inches you desire at the pin to start with. Keep in mind not only can you raise the hitch plate, you likely can lower the pin box.

#2 Max 5et height 13'-6" is the federal highway standard, so you want the highest point of the 5er lower than that.

#3. KNOW how much you need to raise the 5er at the axles, before starting. The best way I know is the following.

First find a level place to measure.
Then park TV & 5er hooked together and with full weight of 5er on TV, measure the location of the pin, measure the distance to the top of the bed rail. We will call this measurment1
Next disconnect the 5er from the TV and level, then measure the distance from the ground to the bottom of the overhang at the pin. We will call this measurment2

So math time (Measurment1+ desired rail clearance in inches) - Measurment2 = how high you need to raise the 5er at the axles. This is way simple and accurate method.

[notanlines]

Astro, I believe I would start with the alterations at the hitch first. All of that won't come to a large chunk of money. Raising the trailer seems to be complicating things a little too much for my money. Go with the hitch and pin work and see what you have. Give it a try in the field.

[Stircrazy]

here is a company in Ontario that sells kits for raising

https://www.trailerblocks.com/

Steve

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

here is a company in Ontario that sells kits for raising

https://www.trailerblocks.com/

Steve

That is the LAST thing I would do to my 5er!!

The twisting force on those blocks and "U" bolts is extreme!!

[dcg9381]

The u-bolts get upgraded as part of their kits. They are substantially stronger than factory. Not all of their lifts are that extreme, I think my blocks are 3/4".

[warsw]

I had the same problem as you. I ended up putting a 3" lift on my 2016 5th wheel. I did the install myself for right at $100.00. What I did was I got (4) 2x3 inch steel blocks cut to length from Swift Steel for $47.00. I then got some longer U-bolts from Summit Racing for $52.00. I got longer centering pins from Napa Auto Parts for $6.00. I did the install by pulling one axle up on blocks while I installed the blocks on the other axle. If you pull the tires you can do most of the install without even getting under the trailer. I left the trailer connected to the truck and put down the landing gear (front & back) to secure the trailer while I was working on it.

I had 600 lbs more weight on the rear axle before the lift and 50 lbs more after. I ended up level with 7" of clearance on my truck bed. The trailer tows great with no loss of stability.