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Old 11-05-2019, 11:48 AM   #41
flybouy
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I to recall the first Japanese cheap cars to hit the shores. You could stand beside them hear them rust.

I'm a firm believer that the US consumer has no one to blame but themselves. When Sam Walton founded WalMart he would only sell "American Made". Well the competition changed that. Wiredgeorge stop reading now as I'm "going to travel down memory lane" here.

I recall a time people actually saved up their money and bought an appliance, or a car, or whatever. It was a major investment and it was expected to last a long time or brand loyalty was a huge factor.

Fast forward to the last 4 or 5 decades and consumers want it NOW and they want it CHEAP. I think the "credit to all" is partly to blame as it certainly enabled a lot of folks to adopt that mantra. Even the "upscale" "upcarge" items are no longer necessarily "higher quality" but rather just more glitzy and trendy. Do you really need a refrigerator with a computer monitor on the door and a WiFi connection? This has transgressed into a "disposable" society. Don't believe it? When was the last time you saw an appliance repairman? IF you can find one the majority of the time they will tell you to replace a TV or washing machine because it cost's to much to repair it.

What I can't understand is why people don't get it. Consumers brought this on and now they kick and scream about the low quality and at the same time Kick and scream that the price is too high. I agree that a "better balance" can be achieved but don't go to McDonalds expecting the meat from Ruth Chris to be on the bun. JMHO
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Old 11-05-2019, 12:14 PM   #42
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Geesh. Now I have to get in on the "when I was a lad" trend... first car was a 62 Corvair. Yeah, Ralph Nader would have disapproved. It was "UNSAFE AT ANY SPEED" (if you can remember the book that described my car. Mine was 5 or 6 years old when I bought it and had a later Monza engine installed which about doubled the power of the original mill. Taught my now wife to drive in that car. Learned how to replace a clutch. Then, just sitting in my Mom's driveway, the wiring harness shorted and burned up... looked like a fuse burning. Learned how to replace a wiring harness.

Anyway, got rid of the pig and bought an MG Midget. Almost got my master's degree in car repair right there. magnetos, fuel pumps (carried a spare in the boot) and it felt like you were sitting on a skate board when you drove the thing. Took the gal I was to marry and who had burned my Corvair clutch up to take her driver's test in that thing because you could front pull into a parking spot to pass your parallel parking test! Big ol' boy driving test guy in a uniform with jack boots stood on the curb and said, "I can't get into that thing" but eventually managed and my wife passed first time! The folks who assembled the MG immigrated to Indiana I think.
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Old 11-05-2019, 12:30 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
Think back to the original "early '70's Honda 600 later called the Civic", the Toyota Corolla and Datsun (before the days of Nissan)...

Back then, I couldn't "unfold" to get out of a Honda 600, the Corolla's dash literally disintegrated in the California desert sun and the seats in the Datsun were "steel tractor seat frames, covered with cheap foam and imitation Naugahyde that peeled off the cotton backing, usually before the car's 12 month, 12,000 mile warranty expired....

Those "great Japanese imports that turned the domestic auto industry on its collective head" were CRAP when they first came to the US. They were too small, built for the Japanese market and the primary reason they "estabilished a foothold here was cost. CHEAP, usually $1000 or more less than a Vega or a Pinto or Maverick. But, it wasn't until after they established a "cheap alternative to the junk built in Detroit" did they start improving.....

Imagine what the YUGO would have been had it improved the product, changed its name from Datsun to Nissan and increased the price to equal the Escort or Vega.....
OK... I have personally have owned 2 Japanese cars. First was a Honda 2 seat sports car made for the Japanese market. I owned it on Okinawa when stationed there. It NEVER ran. Sold and replaced it with a Datsun Sunny. It did run unless it was raining; hence the name Sunny. Had to borrow a car to get my missus to the base hospital for the birth of our #2 kiddo as it was raining when we went. Nothing against Japanese vehicles but I do remember when "Made in Japan" was sort of a joke.

And speaking of a Vega; owned a Vega wagon for 9 years when stationed overseas with the govt. as a civilian. Put less than 5K miles on the thing in that time. It was pulled out of ship's hold coming back to the States and dropped (obviously) as the suspension was messed up and it rattled badly. Might still be driving that 72 Vega wagon if not for that mishap. Not sure what its tow rating was though...
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Old 11-05-2019, 01:36 PM   #44
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Has anyone in here watched the movie " Idiocracy"?
This is it folks. It has been happening since humans have been on the planet.
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Old 11-05-2019, 02:07 PM   #45
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I have seen the movie.
I think the next big "change" that will weed out a lot of the stupidity on the planet will be some "catastrophic" global event that wipes out the satellites and the power grid world wide. The idiots won't know how to find their way around the block, or fend for themselves in a world without Google.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:31 AM   #46
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Which is exactly what Ford and Chevy thought until Honda and Toyota took them to the woodshed and taught them a lesson they would never forget. You can put out a quality product AND be competitive with price.

The RV industry will continue to put out crap as long as we buy it. And I'm just as guilty as the next guy. Like I said before, the only reason I put up with the crap they put out is because I love camping. It doesn't have to be this way. Price vs Quality is a false choice. We CAN have both.
This is basically what I said on a different post that gravitated to discussion on quality. The Japanese competition brought, no forced quality on Ford and GM. I think our problem is the RV market is not large enough to attract a foreign competitor to teach Goshen how to do quality and still maintain decent pricing. Grand Design seems to be trying to do that and if they can grab enough market share from Thor you'll see some change.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:26 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by jimborokz View Post
This is basically what I said on a different post that gravitated to discussion on quality. The Japanese competition brought, no forced quality on Ford and GM. I think our problem is the RV market is not large enough to attract a foreign competitor to teach Goshen how to do quality and still maintain decent pricing. Grand Design seems to be trying to do that and if they can grab enough market share from Thor you'll see some change.
I don't know that Grand Design builds a "better RV" than any other manufacturer, rather it's how they react to fixing problems when they occur.

ALL of the materials and components used are essentially the same as Forest River, Keystone (and the rest of THOR), Winnebago and any other RV builder... They all use the same appliances, chassis, tires, wheels, aluminum tube, doors, windows, TPO, coroplast, DACOR, carpet, furniture, ducting, mattresses, carpet/vinyl, etc...

GD builds using the same construction techniques, same adhesives, same "too may staples" same Robertson #2 screws, same sealants and same workers (as they get upset or fired and move to the next plant down the road).

The significant "difference" between GD and Keystone, IMHO is the "scripting" used by Customer Service.... At Keystone, they answer the phone by saying, "Good Morning, This is Anna at Keystone Customer Service, can I help you?" At GD, they answer the phone by saying, "Good Morning, This is Anna at Grand Designs Customer Service, I CAN help you."

The $4000-5000 extra cost for a GD trailer (can usually be negotiated to much less) if the owner could buy a "upbeat CS policy" for their Keystone, would likely result in much improvement with complaints from Keystone buyers. We'd likely hear more reports of, "My window leaked, my floor rotted, but Keystone fixed it and paid the two payments while they had it at the factory"......

Otherwise, if you read the GD forum, you'll see, for the most part, exactly the same, "My mattress is crap, my regulator won't change over, where's my water pump, my battery was dead when I went to pick up my trailer, my black tank flush won't flow" The list of "What were they thinking?" is nearly identical to what you read on this forum, sometimes I wonder if people buy a Keystone, a Forest River and a GD and join all three forums and get their trailer mixed up as they post a complaint....

I'm not knocking GD, sort of wish Keystone management would use the same customer support philosophy, but don't see that happening as long as the investors are getting a return on their investment and dealers keep placing orders faster than the factory can "sling 'em together".....

Anyway,
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:41 AM   #48
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My first new camper wa 2003 ultralight 28 ft fifver fleetwood . I gave to my son a few years back it has been in hot and cold NM weather 17 years no leaks or problems other then decals and tires. Fleetwood was know for problems, it came with 2 year warranty and the service tecs knew there job. That low end fiver was a lot of bang for the buck .
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:37 AM   #49
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Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:49 AM   #50
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Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??
Subject to satisfactory closing conditions and Regulatory approvals the agreement is set foreclosure in first quarter of fiscal year 2020.That will be a Newmar buyout.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:35 PM   #51
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Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??
I'm thinking Winnebago may be on a roll to up their game. They have been making some changes in their product line, bought Grand Design and about to acquire NewMar which makes some nice motorhomes. They may be a contender for a quality RV in a short period; pricing....who knows.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/winne...143902266.html
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Old 11-07-2019, 06:34 PM   #52
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I just left a dealership that sold/serviced Grand Design. Worked there for a little over 5 years, and I can say from personal experience that they do PDI cleaner than most. I know this is a Keystone forum, I own a Keystone product and the dealership I just started working for sells some Keystone products. Just PDIíd a 2020 Bullet, and it was pretty clean.
I can say that GD didnít change much after the buyout, we thought the quality would fall but it didnít. About the only change I noticed was ďWinnebagoĒ influenced paint schemes.

Give me a year and Iíll have more insight to keystone products. I will say that Forest River still leaves me wishing they would have less issues from the factory.
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:16 AM   #53
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Which is exactly what Ford and Chevy thought until Honda and Toyota took them to the woodshed and taught them a lesson they would never forget. You can put out a quality product AND be competitive with price.

The RV industry will continue to put out crap as long as we buy it. And I'm just as guilty as the next guy. Like I said before, the only reason I put up with the crap they put out is because I love camping. It doesn't have to be this way. Price vs Quality is a false choice. We CAN have both.
Thought of this thread when I saw an interesting review on YouTube of the VanLeigh BEACON fifth wheel. I believe this is a company that produces high end motor coaches and is trying to reach into the towable RV (5th wheel) market with a higher than normal quality level. Look up the prices for these units in RVTrader and you will see that the prices for a 40 foot 5th wheel run between 1.5 and 2.0 times the price of my 2018 Keystone Raptor. They use most of the same appliances and fixtures - but the quality does seem much higher! Let's see - Raptor for $70K - Beacon for $140K. Yup, there is a choice. I'll go back to my prior post - if you want a Mercedes, pay the price. If you are happy with a Ford, then let's go camping!
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:01 AM   #54
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Thought of this thread when I saw an interesting review on YouTube of the VanLeigh BEACON fifth wheel. I believe this is a company that produces high end motor coaches and is trying to reach into the towable RV (5th wheel) market with a higher than normal quality level. Look up the prices for these units in RVTrader and you will see that the prices for a 40 foot 5th wheel run between 1.5 and 2.0 times the price of my 2018 Keystone Raptor. They use most of the same appliances and fixtures - but the quality does seem much higher! Let's see - Raptor for $70K - Beacon for $140K. Yup, there is a choice. I'll go back to my prior post - if you want a Mercedes, pay the price. If you are happy with a Ford, then let's go camping!
VanLeigh is the combined name of 2 Tiffin boys of Tiffin motorhome company.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:49 AM   #55
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Iíll probably be banned for this post but whatís wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they donít want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why canít this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:11 AM   #56
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Maybe try less caffeine...
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:38 AM   #57
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Iíll probably be banned for this post but whatís wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they donít want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why canít this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.

Maybe you read more into the responses that what is there or don't read enough of them.

I try to read almost all of them. When referring to using your warranty the posts are probably 50/50 whether to use it or not. They all will depend on the problem AND the part stressed on those saying to not use it is the wait time factor along with the quality of repair - that's it. If you have the expertise and tools it is recommended by many to fix it yourself. It is not a "forum" response but various responses from individual members with different experiences.

As far as the sandwich analogy; if I got a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac....I eat it. Not worth the effort to complain or wait. If I order no onions (my wife always does) and it comes with onions (they always do) she picks them off; again, not worth the effort to complain or wait. Same goes for little things that happen on an RV. To each his own, his patience level and/or desire to actually have the RV to use. Again, this is an individual preference and opinion from our members. Whether you value those opinions or not is up to you.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:55 AM   #58
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I didn't know of the existence of a forum like this so of course didn't see or hear all the talk about TVs or quality control. Was not until after I bought it that John directed me to the buyers check list. I joined the list AFTER I had purchased. (Sooooo glad I did )

How to make first time buyers more aware of the issues of RV ownership? Forums like this are great, but how to reach people before they buy?
When I bought my first rig in 1998, I went out looking for some type of Consumer Reports groups for RVs. I discovered RV Consumer Group, which back then published large physical phonebook-sized directories of RV manufacturers and models, with detailed ratings for each one. We made our selection from that information and were extremely pleased with the results. We had a quality rig that lasted us 20 almost problem-free years, with only one delivery-time gotcha (don't remember what it was) and one first-trip gotcha (blown grease seal).

By the time I was in the market for this rig, I had entirely forgotten about the group (now called rv.org and operating on the net) and unreasonably assumed that the quality we found in our previous trailer would be more or less the norm. We sure learned better.

Unfortunately, the group seems to be a shadow of its former self. It used to advertise aggressively, now they just seem to skate along running a website.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:01 AM   #59
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Just FYI, Winnebago bought out Grand Design a couple years ago! Good or bad??
Winnebago bought out the manufacturers of my previous TT (Sunnybrook) six or seven years ago, and now they manufacture nothing even resembling the quality or specs of that line, or I would have bought one. So in my experience, bad.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:17 AM   #60
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Iíll probably be banned for this post but whatís wrong with this forum? Someone comes here for help and is immediately chastised and ridiculed. I dropped my keystone off last week for warranty repairs. If they donít want us to use it then why have a warranty. I understand these units are made by humans and humans will be human. Things happen.
What would you do if McDonalds gave you a chicken sandwich instead of a Big Mac? Or you asked for no onions and guess what? There they are. You would send it back for it to be made right. Why is there an issue with someone doing the same with a $30-100k purchase? While my Sprinter is under warranty it will go to the dealer. When it expires will I pay someone $100/hr for something I can do? Absolutely not.
Why canít this forum just answer an OPs question? It seems like there are two answers here. Get a 1 ton dually or get an EMS.
What is the best ladder for a bunk house? Answer: I need your weights to make sure you have enough truck to tow your 10k bunkhouse model.
Is this just my view or is there anyone else that seems to have the same opinion? I still check in from time to time but not a couple times a day like I did before.
As with any written document, or transcript, you can't read "sections" or "selections" and have them taken out of context. I do think the industry needs a "correction" concerning warranty repairs/issues. How do we arrive at that "correction"? Well that's the million dollar question, at leas in my mind.

Would I accept an incorrect sandwich? Well that depends. How much is my time worth? How long can I go without the sandwich is remade? Last time I checked no RV dealer has a pit crew waiting for the arrival of someone with a warranty claim. The dealer also, unlike the fast food restaurant, does not have the authority to correct the issue. The RV dealer must get Keystone's approval first. So to use your example, if I got the wrong sandwich and had to wait for the manager to contact McDonald's corporate to issue a corrected sandwich, then wait for McDonald's corporate to send the ingredients to make a corrected sandwich then yes, I guess I'd accept the sandwich and eat it.

But this is what I DON'T understand. If McDonald's treated me that way I certianly would not return the next time I'm hungry.
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