Intermittent electrical problems - Page 2

Steve/ · 09-30-2017, 12:48 PM

OK I went back and reread your post. All the 12v were going out.
You found a bad connection to battery, it was dead. so it make sense that you would lose 12v when the Air Conditioner (AC) 110ac turns off and the converter is on the same 110 ac circuit it was supping the 12v since the battery was dead.
Once the battery is charged up the lights should stay lit when the AC stops.
I have no idea why the AC is acting up.but I am thinking it more of a power problem then a bad AC since the converter is also going off.

txfireguy2003 · 09-30-2017, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve/

OK I went back and reread your post. All the 12v were going out.
You found a bad connection to battery, it was dead. so it make sense that you would lose 12v when the Air Conditioner (AC) 110ac turns off and the converter is on the same 110 ac circuit it was supping the 12v since the battery was dead.
Once the battery is charged up the lights should stay lit when the AC stops.
I have no idea why the AC is acting up.but I am thinking it more of a power problem then a bad AC since the converter is also going off.

Agreed. The converter is on a different circuit from the A/C, different breakers even (trailer has several of the double breakers with two switches in one Beasley body). Knock on wood, I went out and did some work in the field and my wife said it seemed to be fine for the lady few hours, so we'll see what happens. The only other time I had trouble with this trailer was a couple years ago when the slide wouldn't go in or out. That's when I replaced the battery, but found that the ground to the trailer frame was rusted. Cleaned that up and everything was good to go again. Hopefully that's all it is this time too.

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Steve/ · 09-30-2017, 03:39 PM

If the AC and converter are on 2 different circuits I would look for the problem from the breaker to the outside power source.
I would also do as you are doing and wait an see if you still have a problem after fixing the ground problem.

txfireguy2003 · 09-30-2017, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve/

If the AC and converter are on 2 different circuits I would look for the problem from the breaker to the outside power source.
I would also do as you are doing and wait an see if you still have a problem after fixing the ground problem.

I felt the same way, but the engineer in me says that if I had a problem on the input side, it would effect all of the circuits, since they all tie to a single leg of 120V. If it were a 50A service, then yeah, it would make sense, but it's only a 30A. Besides, I already checked the input at the pedestal, and the main power wire. I'm just crossing my fingers now and hoping I fixed it with the ground and tightening the connectors in the panel. Time will tell.

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txfireguy2003 · 10-01-2017, 07:01 PM

Well, the battery was A problem, but not the only one. I removed the battery completely as it's not needed when hooked to shore power and the problem persists. It seems to happen most when the lights are on, which leads me to believe the problem is a failing power converter. I feel like it's overheating, shutting down, cooling off and restarting. At night, when all the lights are off and the only 12V draw should be the fridge, there are no problems, the A/C runs all night. During the day, when we are up and about and have the lights on, is when it cuts off. Strangely though, the converter is sending ample voltage to the battery, the battery just wasn't taking the charge. I can check between the frame and the positive battery lead (with battery disconnected of course) and get 12.6V.

I still can't see how the converter is causing the A/C to turn off, but the whole unit is less than 175 bucks, so I'm probably going to buy a new power converter and install it to see if that solves the problem. That is, unless someone else has a better suggestion of course. Sadly, it'll be two weeks before I can test it.

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**chuckster57** · 10-01-2017, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hankpage

Is your water heater on electric or gas??? 30amp is not enough to run a/c and water heater at the same time. Switch water heater to gas and see what happens.

I do it all the time, Never had a problem.

txfireguy2003 · 10-01-2017, 07:12 PM

Sorry, I never answered that question, it's gas only. I wish there was an electric option like a retrofit kit for my existing heater. Would save me quite a bit on propane since it's rarely cold enough here to need the heater.

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**JRTJH** · 10-01-2017, 07:22 PM

OK, This is another SWAG, based on a "best guess" as to which power center you have. I'm guessing it's a WFCO, probably a 8500 or 8700 series. Even back in 1995 (again guessing that the converter is the original ??) the charging circuits in the converter provided three levels of charge (and the same voltage to the power circuits in the trailer. Those voltages are 14.4, 13.6 and 13.2 VDC. In all the WFCO troubleshooting guides, the instructions say to disconnect the battery, power on the converter and read the voltage at the battery terminal connection (no battery just the terminals) and the voltage "should be" 13.6 VDC. If you're accurately reading 12.6 VDC, chances are there's a few "shorted windings in the transformer" or another problem inside the converter.

So, your guess that the converter is likely bad is as good a guess as any other I've seen. I agree, replace it and if the battery is toast, replace it as well.

As to why the air conditioner is acting up ??? My only guess would be the 12 VDC circuits in the A/C, but you say your thermostat is AA battery powered, so I don't have any idea why the A/C would be giving you problems.....

You can download all the manuals for the WFCO components here: http://wfcoelectronics.com/product-downloads/

Let us know what you find, this one is definitely a "head scratcher".....

txfireguy2003 · 10-01-2017, 07:32 PM

Actually, my wife corrected me, it's a 2005, not a 95, I can't remember, I just pay the bills.

Anyway, it appears to be a WFCO 8900 series, although I was not smart enough to get the exact model, and I'm now 3 hours away. I don't know if I have a 35, 45, 55, 65 or 75 amp model, but it appears that any of the amp ratings would fit the housing, and it won't hurt to have more amps available, might actually run cooler and more reliably if the demand is well below the output capability.

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**chuckster57** · 10-01-2017, 07:33 PM

I would definitely upgrade to 75A if your going to change it.

**JRTJH** · 10-01-2017, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckster57

I would definitely upgrade to 75A if your going to change it.

Absolutely agree !!! The 8955 is typically what Keystone installs and it is "marginally adequate" with incandescent lights and even with LED's it's not a "star player".... I'd upgrade to the 8975, or if you want to spend even more money on a "maybe this is it" kind of purchase, Progressive builds a pretty good converter that is, for the most part, a direct changeout.

But, for me, if I were buying one tonight for my trailer, I'd buy the WFCO 8975. Since you say it's a 2005 model trailer, then you definitely have the 3 stage charger and should be reading 13.6 VDC at the battery terminals with no battery installed.

txfireguy2003 · 10-01-2017, 07:42 PM

That was the plan. Also, I just went back and read my previous posts again, and I'm remembering wrong, it is 13.6V reading across the two cables that attach to the battery (with the battery removed). 11.4V with the battery hooked up....

Apparently my "maintenance free" battery isn't, it was basically empty of water/acid, I fixed that with distilled water and put it on my charger on the recondition setting, maybe it can be saved, if not, I'll buy a new Optima.

I also checked earlier today and found that the cooling fan IS turning, and moving air, but it's not revved up like I've heard it do in the past, it was turning silently line a computer fan..... is it a multi speed fan? Does the overheating theory make any sense? I don't want to throws money at parts if they aren't going to fix the issue.

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**JRTJH** · 10-01-2017, 07:53 PM

With your comments about the battery being "dry and undercharged" I'd first consider replacing the battery and see how it goes. You may find that it was the battery causing all the DC problems (still confused on the A/C issue though).

If you do "rejuvenate the battery" use it with a careful eye. I've never had a modern deep cycle battery "boil dry" and recover....

As for the converter fan, it is "louder under heavy loads" but I can't tell you that it's variable speed ( in the older units) but it is in the newer units. Also, the transformer hums louder under heavy loads, making the fan "seem to be louder" ???? Either way, the fan should not be "intrusive" so if it was previously louder than now, it may be "giving up the ghost" now. ????

At any rate, with the "dry battery", I'd hold off buying a converter until you know you've got a good battery in the system. Then, if the DC issues persist, I'd consider a replacement converter. Save your money for now, resolve the battery part, then move forward.

**hankpage** · 10-01-2017, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckster57

I do it all the time, Never had a problem.

Chuck, If you are getting away with it on 30 amp service you are very lucky. Adding up the amperage from the water heater, a/c and the converter when it goes into full charge mode will exceed 30 amps most if not all of the time when the a/c starts up. It seems to me the times when this happens is when the water heater would be calling for heat and when the lights are on with a weak battery the converter would kick into high charge. JM2¢ as usual, Hank

**chuckster57** · 10-01-2017, 08:10 PM

I'll have to look at my amp gauge on my EMS and see what it says. Batteries are never low enough to need full charge.

txfireguy2003 · 10-02-2017, 05:36 AM

So, it hit me at 4am while trying to fall back asleep, why the 12V system would be screwing with the A/C. They are tied together in some way, because the thermostat for the A/C also controls the gas furnace, which is capable of running without 120V shore power. This tells me that the temperature controls inside the A/C unit, must also run on 12V, and not by converting it within the unit, otherwise, three would be no way to control the furnace without the power hookup. Seems line the actual thermostat is internal to the A/C unit, and what we think of as the thermostat that hangs on the wall, is just a remote. Therefore, when I lose 12V power to that part of the A/C system, it shuts down because there's no signal telling it to keep running.

Sound plausible, or am I a big idiot for even thinking this way?

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**JRTJH** · 10-02-2017, 05:53 AM

Nope, you're not "a big idiot for thinking that way"... I agree, there's an "orange wire" from the thermostat to the A/C control box that carries 12 VDC. That wire is critical to A/C operation and if it is loose, will cause the thermostat to enter an error code indicating "failure to communicate". That same 12VDC controls the furnace operation and, if the fan switch is in high or low (not auto) will cause the fan in the A/C to come on when the thermostat calls for heat.

That said, I can't tell you whether the 12VDC originates within the A/C (regulated voltage) or if it comes from the battery/converter, goes through the thermostat or comes from the furnace, to the thermostat and then to the A/C. My guess would be that it's 12VDC from the battery/converter, to the A/C control box and then to the thermostat (via that orange wire) and then to the furnace. But I could be completely wrong, that's just my "best guess" since I've never had the need to sit down with all the manuals and try to piece together the interconnection schematics.

**chuckster57** · 10-02-2017, 06:01 AM

Thermostat gets its power from the control board in the AC. Thermostat "tells" the control board what your asking for (heat or cool) and reports the temp.

Where the 12V originates from, I don't know. You could figure it out by using a test light and then pulling fuses.

B-O-B'03 · 10-02-2017, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txfireguy2003

That was the plan. Also, I just went back and read my previous posts again, and I'm remembering wrong, it is 13.6V reading across the two cables that attach to the battery (with the battery removed). 11.4V with the battery hooked up....

Apparently my "maintenance free" battery isn't, it was basically empty of water/acid, I fixed that with distilled water and put it on my charger on the recondition setting, maybe it can be saved, if not, I'll buy a new Optima.

I also checked earlier today and found that the cooling fan IS turning, and moving air, but it's not revved up like I've heard it do in the past, it was turning silently line a computer fan..... is it a multi speed fan? Does the overheating theory make any sense? I don't want to throws money at parts if they aren't going to fix the issue.

My WFCO converter failed, a few weeks past the 2 year warranty and I replaced just the circuit board with a PD4655 MBA from Progressive Dynamics.

The Progressive is a 4 stage unit, with dual fans and it slides right in to the WFCO load center.

While I was at it, I replace the 2 X 12 volt batteries, that were damaged in the process, with 2 X 6 volt golf cart batteries.

All in it was under $500, for the converter, batteries and battery box to hold them.

I am very happy with my decision.

-Brian

CamperDave · 10-02-2017, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

This is just a guess, especially since I have no reliable information on what kind of trailer, it's age or what specific electrical system (30 amp or 50 amp) it might have. I'm guessing from your first post that you have a 1995 Zepplin with a 30 amp electrical service. If that's correct, my "SWAG" would be a loose terminal either on the circuit breaker panel or the circuit breaker. Those connections are "screw in" type connectors and do vibrate loose with travel. Another possibility is a bad 30 amp power cord. Back in 1995, many "umbilical cords" were permanently attached and shoving them in/pulling them out of the "mousehole" will flex the wire enough to eventually cause it to fatigue and break. Also, there's a potential that the 30 amp plug that you are plugging the trailer into might be faulty (loose connector)....

My bet would be a loose neutral (white) wire inside the circuit breaker panel on the trailer. BE SURE TO DISCONNECT SHORE POWER BEFORE TAKING THE COVER OFF THE PANEL !!!!!!!!!

I would have to agree with JRTJH on this.

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