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Old 03-19-2017, 05:40 PM   #41
SilverRig
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Document your warranty claim

Kcandred,
This sounds like the same issue. I would strongly suggest that you get your coach documented with the issue BEFORE the warranty expires. Don't expect your dealer to fix it first time in the shop because Keystone says that don't have a fix just yet. Once documented I can use your dealer's name to inform the manufacturer rep that I'm working with that it's not isolated to the Rocky Mountain region.

Thank you for chiming in. I need as many owners as I can find with a similar issue to get Keystone to resolve it. In our area heat is a must for spring/fall outings.

SilverRig

P.S. - Here's the results of an experiment I ran: (If you run the same one do you get similar results?)

Problem Statement


The airflow of the heating system isn't sufficient enough to heat the coach.

Experiment



The goal of this experiment is to achieve a sufficient heat level within the coach to trigger the set point of the thermostat. The thermostat was set at 65 degrees and the outside temperature was at 44 degrees when the test started.



Thermometer placement.

I purchased an indoor/outdoor thermometer as well as two low end thermometers. I placed the thermometers in the camper the afternoon prior to the day of the experiment.
  1. One was placed at the foot of the bed, with the bulb of the thermometer hanging over the bed.
  2. One was placed on the arm of the sleeper sofa next to the wall, with the bulb of the thermometer hanging over the arm of the sofa.
  3. The indoor thermometer was place on the kitchen counter, left of the stove
  4. The outdoor thermometer was placed on top of the battery box to provide unhindered access to the outside air.
Heat Profile

The following chart shows the coach temperature changes over a period of three hours at which point in time, I aborted the test. The test was run using the AC circuit as I didn't want to burn down the battery and have it fail during the attempt to reach the thermostat set point.

Register is the term used to describe the output end of the furnace within the coach. There are four registers within the 28RKS model.

  1. At the kitchen, under the stove/oven
  2. In the middle of the living room
  3. In the bathroom
  4. In the bedroom
Since the bathroom and bedroom share the same delivery channel, the chart only records the Bedroom readings. (First column is time. Yes I started at night to use the outdoor temp.)


OutsideKitchenLivingBedroomSet PointDuration22:1246.750.15248650:0022:4545.557.25 756650:3323:1144.659.36156650:5923:3644.261.563576 51:2423:5543.862.66357651:430:2243.363.56458652:10 0:4243.1646459652:301:0242.664.46459652:501:1242.2 65.56459653:00As you will notice, there was an initial jump in temperature within the first 30 minutes. After that, while temperatures were slowly rising, the coach never reached a temperature that would trigger the thermostat set point of 65 degrees. After three hours, this experiment was terminated.

It has been my experience with my other three campers, that the set point on the thermostat would be reached within 10 to 20 minutes depending on the outside temperature.

Observations
  • Disconnecting the hoses at the furnace reveals there is airflow out the ports of the furnace that appears to be sufficient.
  • The kitchen register feeds into the cool air return. However, according to the installation manual of the furnace this isn't supposed to be an issue because a heater vent must be at least 18" from the cool air return and may be less if on a wall 90 degrees from the cool air return.
  • Blocking off the kitchen register created some back pressure on the furnace to push more air flow out the floor registers in living and bath but not enough to substantially change the airflow.
  • Blocking off the kitchen register caused the furnace to develop a slight whistle
Questions
  • Is the furnace the properly rated for the space that needs to be heated?
  • Are their any kinked heater hoses within the coach that is preventing air to flow?
  • Are there any obstructions in the delivery system?
  • Are all the heater hose connections secured properly?

Other Tests
  • Endoscope the heater hoses to determine blockages and/or determine if connections are secure.
  • Run the furnace off the battery to determine if the battery will die before reaching the set point
  • Disconnect coach hoses and run independent hoses on the floor through the coach to see if 'cold air return' is an issue as Keystone suspects.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:40 PM   #42
chuckster57
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It's not just a Keystone problem. Just delivered a 2017 Shadow Cruiser with the furnace in the rear and bedroom up front. This one too had barely detectable flow in the bedroom. When I asked the factory if louvered vents in the main cabin were possible, I was sternly told "leave it alone" DO NOT disturb the air flow.

I am convinced this is a design flaw, but when you look at the floor plan, where to put the furnace and not lose storage space is the dilemma. I wish the "experts" who design these things had to camp in them for a week in adverse conditions. I wish you all the best, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:42 PM   #43
SilverRig
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The table I entered didn't seem to take ... I'll repost if I can figure out how to get the data in.
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:03 PM   #44
SilverRig
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Chart from the previous post


Picture of the chart in the previous post. The first column is the time and yes, I started at 10:12pm for the outside temperature.
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Old 03-23-2017, 05:36 PM   #45
Bingo 57
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OK just an up-date on my rig it's still at the shop. SilverRig's experiment is spot on. It say's it a lot clearer than I. I've not heard from Keystone this week, and I was holding off on calling them till the 1st of the week.

Kcandred, as SilverRig said get on this asap. The more that speak up on this the better chance we all have I think. This is a design issue, it does sound like Keystone is trying to find a field remedy.
Regards

OK just settled in from moving all that white s--t (snow) we got last night & this morning. While I was out I did receive a call from the service manager from the shop where my unit is, in a nutshell he does have concerns with my unit & is in "talks" with both Keystone as will as Suburban. This was a VM so no more info was given. I will be making a call Monday. Needless to say my "hope meter" is staying tough for now. I will continue the up dates.
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Old 04-12-2017, 04:55 PM   #46
Bingo 57
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Will all my fears & concerns came true today ! Yes sir-re!! Keystone is now saying that that is normal operation ???? Now how in the frick can the furnace running for 9 + hrs be normal !! I guess it's as I said in the beginning these are "fair" weather units! And in reading the posts on the axle issues with these I fear the units as a hole may have some very serious problems. I now am pondering what to do with the POS. So much for retirement. I'm not a rich man I cant afford to go the lawyer rough, so I guess I deal with it till I decide what direction I'm going. Best of luck to all else who have to deal with Keystone.
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:09 PM   #47
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You might want to consider contacting Trailer Life. They have helped others when their own efforts weren't fruitful. We camped last weekend in our TT and it went down to 32 and we had no issues with our heater keeping it at 69-70 through the night. If I'm reading your posts correctly, it seems like your dealer isn't really stepping up to the plate. I can't imagine why a good tech couldn't figure out what's going on.


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Old 04-12-2017, 05:32 PM   #48
Bingo 57
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My unit as will as SilverRig's have been serviced by the same dealer, I feel in all honesty that the service manager did his best. I have no reason to believe otherwise. I had not thought of Trailer Life, thank you for that suggestion. Will look into that next.
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:19 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tbos View Post
I can't imagine why a good tech couldn't figure out what's going on.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
A lot of times we do have it figured out. Furnace at the rear of the unit. 3" ducting near the furnace, and 1 1/2" branch to feed the bedroom at the other end. Air is like water and will take the path of least resistance. When I request a louvered register to regulate the flow and send more to the bedroom, the "engineers" instantly send a message loud and clear:

"DO NOT MODIFY THE HEATING SYSTEM". Changing the flow characteristics of the ducting may cause the limit switch to activate, shutting off the flame, and then when the plenum cools off enough and the thermostat says we are not up to set temp, the burner fires again and the cycle starts over.

In my previous post I stated that this isn't just a Keystone issue, and I don't know what the fix is other than " re inventing the wheel", which the factory won't pay for. My best advise is to keep the pressure on Keystone by whatever means necessary. I wish you the best!
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Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.

Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
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Old 04-12-2017, 06:47 PM   #50
Bingo 57
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Thanks Chuckster, with so many of these units showing up I would have though they (Keystone) would have wanted to be more responsive. If for no other reason but to save reputation.
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:14 PM   #51
Bingo 57
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Hey all just an up-date. Took my unit to a independent RV repair shop that primarily works with the appliance warranties and lo and behold they are now trying to replace the furnace unit itself due to the "primary" burner not going into hi-fire. I'll do a follow as I know more.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:16 PM   #52
Lawrosa
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Hi all.. In my search for furnace issues I am experiencing I came across you thread..

I do not own a keystone but a coachmen with a suburban furnace.

Ive read this post carefully and you all should stay on track to the issue at hand.

With thats said my issue is the same as the op's and may have more theroys on whats going on.

My background is I am a plumber 35 years.

So I have a 2018 coachmen with a suburban furnace. The first thing I noticed with the furnace and the manufacturers build on this SF 30 was they only installed 3 ducts. This is a 26 ft camper.

After turning on the furnace I notices it goes off on high limit.

Suburban states 3 ducts minimum for the SF 30. Thats fine I have 3 ducts but one is right next to the furnace going through the wall to the master. The other two are 20 ft away at the buck area and rear bath.

So why did I think the cause of the high limit is cause by? Lack of air flow I think.

So calling the dealer they sent me a whole duct kit. I installed this close to the furnace under the couch. ( Just a note all the 2017 units had this 4th duct because the furnaces of that years were an SF 35. That furnace requires 4 ducts)

so when the furnace goes on and off on high limit it will take a long time to heat the coach for sure.

Thats what I think the OP is experiencing. His may be a simple limit switch replacement for 6 bucks.

On the other hand my furnace it definitely overheating. The temp out of the ducts is extremely hot. But because of this high limit switch turning the burner on and off every few minutes I dont think the coach will heat properly in cold temps.

So for now I added a 4th duct. I have room in the plenum for a 5th which I may also add.

But here is a wrench ill throw in. Im testing my furnace when its 85 f out. Is it possible the incoming air into the unit is too hot and this is normal operation? ( I know you guys are testing in cold weather) I may have to wait till cold weather hits to test my theory to see if furnace limit switch kicks off the burner.

IMO the burner should not kick off by the limit switch.

I have not figures out my next course of action, but my dealer also is 4 hours away. And I aint driving that far for anything period. I will fix myself if need be..

But the good tip I got from here is the warranty on the furnace. I have a suburban auth center a few miles from my home.

I am going to go there tomorrow and pick the guess brain there. I already have this documented through coachmen and they are the ones that sent me the additional duct at no charge.

1. Ill probably get a call into suburban tomorrow to see what they say
2. I will hit the suburban auth center tomorrow to see what they say
3 will call dealer warranty dept to see their response
4 then make a call to coachmen to get paid if there are any out of pocket expenses on my end.

There is an issue..... I just have not figured it out yet..

Pics of 2017 model with duct, and my unit missing duct. And pics of my adding one duct. Still hi limit issue. Dont know if because its not cold outside, or there is an issue of air flow or mechanical issue.
























Below pic....two ducts where I am standing. And one in the master. None in the middle of the camper. That t stat will never get satisfied....


Ill probably add the 5th duct. IMO add all the ducts you can out of your plenum....

I will add the 5th duct nect to the other I installed under the couch.

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Old 06-13-2017, 04:47 PM   #53
Bingo 57
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Heater Issues

Thanks for the in depth reply. Just this past weekend I was able to confirm that I believe my issues have been resolved, the issue hi limit switch. The night time temp's dropped to just around 41 deg, not as cool as I wish it would have gotten, but for this time of the year about average. For this I paid a private rv repair shop. No customer should have gone through, experienced the grief that myself & at least one other have. Could I recommend this couch to someone, based on the customer service alone NO. I wish you the best of luck with your struggles.
Regards
Bingo
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Old 06-13-2017, 05:19 PM   #54
Lawrosa
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So your issue was the high limit switch???


So yours was defective and the furnace box was not reaching temperature.

Mine is the opposite. My furnace box gets super hot that the high limit goes off..
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:48 PM   #55
Bingo 57
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Heater Issues

Correct, mine was "breaking" before it reached temp. Then it would start the cycle of bringing the burner on & off.

Bingo
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:30 PM   #56
Bingo 57
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Heater Issues

Just a follow-up been out several times now this summer & the furnace has work flawlessly. Shame it took over a year & countless calls as will as 60+ pounds of propane.... So now I am finally getting to do the "new owner" shake down on the unit. Socks for me, anything I do and have found now is out of warranty! At anyrate I do like the unit for the most part. Happy camping to all !
Bingo
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Old 09-06-2017, 06:39 PM   #57
Bingo 57
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Heater Issues

Fallow up, coming up on end of the season here. Have had unit out several times and have no issues with the heater. Up side to the end of this I have been in direct contact with Keystone, and they have agreed to reimburse me for my out of pocket expenses!!! This has taken far to long to resolve in my opinion as will as far to much STRESS ! I do now have a reserve hi-limit switch !
V/R
Bingo
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:56 AM   #58
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Duct sizing

Read all the threads with interest.

Not sure why but Keystone used an Atwood 30K on my Bullet 251RBSWE. In the installation manual this one calls for a minimum of three 4" ducts, with the following notation: "*Note the table is for minimum requirements and should in most cases allow the unit to operate correctly. If the burner cycles on and off on the high temperature limit. Extra ducting can be used to help correct this condition due to restriction or bends in duct work."

Here's the link for the rest of the specifics. http://www.americanrvcompany.com/***...m-Furnaces.pdf

Hopefully you can locate similar info in the Suburban Install manual.
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:10 PM   #59
Bingo 57
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Heater Issues

Thanks for your feed back, however in my unit there are 4 ducks being used. 1 to the upper area, 1 to the belly area, 1 to the center of the couch, lastly 1 to the rear of the couch. I just returned from a trip where the night time temps dropped to mid 20's & my unit stayed in the 68 to 70 deg range easley. Probably could have run it warmer / hotter, just for me that was more than comfortable. Thanks again for your feed-back!
Regards.
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:43 PM   #60
Johnny's Journey
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Unbelievable story. But I understand all to well. I won't go into what I had going on with mine but I do relate to all the BS that is handed off as normal and or correct.
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