TV is a SUV

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by sourdough

Understand. What you are saying is that you are living with what you have and trying to do the best you can....say that in your posts.

You don't have the optimal towing setup...and you know that. Please just acknowledge that and let folks know what you are doing to try to compensate for that...not saying it all works out OK no matter what you do.

You need to do what I do. Bought a new 2012 pickup, did not live up to what I wanted, bought a new 2014 HD and now looking at a '16 when they try to sell them off. Bought a new '17 Ford Explorer for mom at the end of July. Not happy with it. Will get a new Sequoia by the end of Nov. Don't live with things that don't work....IMO.

But then we going back to the beginning. What is the definition of "does work"? Any objective numbers, tests in performance, stability etc? But in fact most people on the forum like to talk about "comfort" ,"experience" and so on, and most never had a chance to test a Canam rig. I am a part of a small community, there are maybe thousands of us among millions, and for most the people was not easy to take the plunge. But it starts from education and knowledge, and then comes experience, and eventually you get your own understanding and stereotypes of what works and what does not, and you keep doing things this way, usually get your next vehicle and go straight to Canam.
Interestingly, most of my critics are on line, in real world on the rest areas people are mostly amazed by coolness, esthetics and balance of my combo, ask questions, own similar vehicles and want to get into RVing...
Absolute majoruty of people actually living with what they have, I see plenty of popups, small 16 footers without slides, everything is relative. And once in a while I see motorhome or fifth wheel in the gutter with wheels up...Why this happened with them if they did everything right? Were they overloaded? Of course, because there are no other causes of accidents when it comes to RV, without it people may speed, drink, text, fall asleep, be blown by the wind..., but with TT its only weight or short wheelbase.
Ok, enough philosophy for the evening.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by RGene7001

But then we going back to the beginning. What is the definition of "does work"? Any objective numbers, tests in performance, stability etc? But in fact most people on the forum like to talk about "comfort" ,"experience" and so on, and most never had a chance to test a Canam rig. I am a part of a small community, there are maybe thousands of us among millions, and for most the people was not easy to take the plunge. But it starts from education and knowledge, and then comes experience, and eventually you get your own understanding and stereotypes of what works and what does not, and you keep doing things this way, usually get your next vehicle and go straight to Canam.
Interestingly, most of my critics are on line, in real world on the rest areas people are mostly amazed by coolness, esthetics and balance of my combo, ask questions, own similar vehicles and want to get into RVing...
Absolute majoruty of people actually living with what they have, I see plenty of popups, small 16 footers without slides, everything is relative. And once in a while I see motorhome or fifth wheel in the gutter with wheels up...Why this happened with them if they did everything right? Were they overloaded? Of course, because there are no other causes of accidents when it comes to RV, without it people may speed, drink, text, fall asleep, be blown by the wind..., but with TT its only weight or short wheelbase.
Ok, enough philosophy for the evening.

"'Nuff said". You're happy and that's what counts at the end of the day. I wish you safe travels for you and yours.

[temccarthy1]

Originally Posted by RGene7001

Why?
Because most people like easy solutions, but there is virtually no SUV on the market which has both capability and ratings to tow a decent size TT.
Tahoes and Expeditions have generous tow and hitch ratings but unfavorable rear overhang/ wheelbase ratio and softer suspensions kill their stabilty with TT and many people become disappointed with them
German midsize SUVs are excellent in terms of geometry, design and powertrain capability but most suffer from weak hitch receivers, either with insufficient rating or just incompatible with WD hitches, so aftermarket modification is necessary (and there is only one place on the continent where this can be done well).
The best towing SUVs on the market are probably Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango, they feature Mercedes platform and hitch receiver capable to handle up to 720 lb with WD.
Passport 195 RB is quite lite and small, so the new Explorer should handle it without difficulty, the only question is how soon you will want something bigger and with more amenities.

Where did you get your facts!? Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango do not even have truck frames! They are unibody vehicles and not suitable as TV's unless a PUP. I have a 2013 Expedition XLT with HD tow package and 5.4 L V8 pulling a 30 ft Bullet Ultralite TT and performs beautifully! I used to have a 1997 Expedition and pulled a 7000 lb boat/trailer 40,000 miles with no problem. The Expedition is same frame and power as an F150. I agree Explorer is to small but an Expedition or Excursion are up for the job as TV's for good size TT's.

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by temccarthy1

Where did you get your facts!? Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango do not even have truck frames! They are unibody vehicles and not suitable as TV's unless a PUP. I have a 2013 Expedition XLT with HD tow package and 5.4 L V8 pulling a 30 ft Bullet Ultralite TT and performs beautifully! I used to have a 1997 Expedition and pulled a 7000 lb boat/trailer 40,000 miles with no problem. The Expedition is same frame and power as an F150. I agree Explorer is to small but an Expedition or Excursion are up for the job as TV's for good size TT's.

Expedition wheelbase: 119-131
F150 wheelbase: 120-163
Expeditions are not bad, especially late models and EL, but some people I came across are happy with them, some are not.
Full frame in half ton class does not provide any advantages, the only problem with unibodies is not weakness, they are much more rigid, but ineffective weight distribution in most cases which demands hitch modification. Only JCG and Durango are clearly rated for 700 lb + with WD

[Yak]

I didn't see it mentioned, frontal area limitation is 40 sq ft with a class III hitch with WD. My little hybrid is 56 sq ft.

[linux3]

Originally Posted by zuley

Not that it is worth anything let me add my experience to the SUV debate. We too have a 23RB that I had convinced my self that my diesel Grand Cherokee would be sufficirent as a tow vehicle. Towed home from the dealer with nothing loaded. Towed like a dream. Loaded it up the following weekend and headed out for the May 2-4. I had convinced myself I was safe and good to go. Made it to the camp site, had a great weekend. Jeep towed like a dream with power to spare. On the way home coming out of a forested area we took a cross wind that litterally moved the Jeep and the trailer, as one, across the centre line. I bought a truck the next day. I've read most of the posts here but I don't recall anyone touching on the short wheel base issues with SUV as compared to pick up trucks. My weights were all in accordance with the TV ratings but the short wheel base made it unsuitable as a tow vehicle.

Grand Cherokee is about a foot shorter than a Ford Explorer and lighter. A 23RB is longer and heavier than a 195RB. Apples and oranges.

[linux3]

Originally Posted by sourdough

You're driving a 2016 Explorer if I recall. I drive a 2017. I wouldn't pull the trailer you talk about for love or money with my Explorer. Why? It is not an adequate TV. Why do I know that? I've pulled all kinds of trailers with all kinds of vehicles. A midsize SUV like the Explorer is adequate for a small flat bed trailer....not an fair sized RV. I don't recall where you're from but I can tell you flat out that if you are pulling your RV down the road in TX driving 60 mph and a semi comes by you at 80-85 mph (normal speed limit is 75 - many semis run the speeds I mentioned all the time) your little SUV will be sucked into the side of the truck if you don't see it, OR, you will be spending minutes watching him approach, grabbing the wheel, then doing everything you can do not to be sucked in. Not the way it should be.
.

Oh bull!
On I80 through Ohio I've passed trucks and had them pass me. No problem.
I asked what I thought was an interesting question and I get pickup fanboys making comments with no real experience.

[linux3]

Originally Posted by Yak

I didn't see it mentioned, frontal area limitation is 40 sq ft with a class III hitch with WD. My little hybrid is 56 sq ft.

Ah ha. My TT is 8' wide and 10' tall but it isn't 80 sq. ft. After all it's on wheels.
OK, 8 ft wide and 8 ft tall? 64 sq ft?

Nope, it is kinda streamlined.
The equation for wind resistance is (1/2)*(density of air)*(frontal area)*(drag coefficient)*(velocity)^2

The drag coefficient is dependent on the shape of the object. A wedge would have a smaller drag coefficient than a box.

I'm no fool an I didn't just jump into this.
Adjusted frontal area, backed out from wind resistance is 43 sq ft.

[CaptnJohn]

I simply see people using what they already own and/or can afford. Some have over compensated, some have no clue, some are aware, and others make up justification. Some talk of 'experience', I've been pulling over 42 years and know it helps but it will not take care of Murphy every time. I'm happy for those that understand comfort and those that have some cushion as well as those at or over their numbers. I'm sure there are a couple here that really could justify towing a 40' 5er with a Chevy Colorado and do a darn good job of it.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by linux3

Oh bull!
On I80 through Ohio I've passed trucks and had them pass me. No problem.
I asked what I thought was an interesting question and I get pickup fanboys making comments with no real experience.

Pickup fanboys??? Maybe we should say experienced towers that know BS from real life. No experience? I've been towing all kinds of things probably longer than you've been alive based on your posts.

You have an Explorer (THE BEAST) of which you seem so enamored of. I suspect it's the most powerful vehicle you've ever owned. It's a wuss for towing....sorry, just the facts. I own one (2017), and I reiterate, it is not built for towing a travel trailer unless it's small. I hate the way it handles by itself; can't imagine pulling a trailer with it unless I had a death wish. I suppose you love it because you have absolutely nothing in the world to compare it with....and it's a "beast"??

You've got what you've got. You think it's a BEAST. Well, live in your world but don't tell knowledgeable, experienced folks that you've got the best TV in the world and if they don't agree they are "pickup fanboys". Maybe you could just say we know a lot more than you.....from experience.

[chuckster57]

Okay, at this point I will ask nicely that we stop the name calling and mud throwing or this thread will be locked.

[linux3]

Originally Posted by sourdough

No experience? I've been towing all kinds of things probably longer than you've been alive based on your posts.

You have an Explorer (THE BEAST) of which you seem so enamored of. I suspect it's the most powerful vehicle you've ever owned. It's a wuss for towing....sorry, just the facts. I own one (2017), and I reiterate, it is not built for towing a travel trailer unless it's small. I hate the way it handles by itself; can't imagine pulling a trailer with it unless I had a death wish. I suppose you love it because you have absolutely nothing in the world to compare it with....and it's a "beast"??

You've got what you've got. You think it's a BEAST. Well, live in your world but don't tell knowledgeable, experienced folks that you've got the best TV in the world and if they don't agree they are "pickup fanboys". Maybe you could just say we know a lot more than you.....from experience.

OK, maybe a little harsh but...
I was born in the 40's. Grew up on a farm towing all that that implies.
Got indoor plumbing when I was 6. Hazah.

My 1977 Ford F-250 with a 460 V8 was, I think, the most powerful vehicle I've owned. Pulled a 28' 5th wheel real well.

If you are pulling a LARGE TT or a 5th wheel a pickup is the way to go, I agree but I'm tired of the work and like a smaller trailer.

Perhaps the question should have been 'Why are there so few SUV towable TT's' being pulled by SUVs?

[notanlines]

Linux, I believe I have at least half the answer. Compare a typical SUV to a typical 1/2 ton pickup these days. Both can have every imaginable option known to man....and, yes, woman too. Pickups seat five very comfortably, SUV's seat seven or eight with some comfort. All the electronics are the same, the ride is comparable, and the prices are about the same. The pickup is generally more versatile than an SUV. Plus you can line the pickup bed with visqueen and fill it with water. Instant pool for the kids or the kids at heart. Don't do that with Momma's SUV.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by linux3

OK, maybe a little harsh but...
I was born in the 40's. Grew up on a farm towing all that that implies.
Got indoor plumbing when I was 6. Hazah.

My 1977 Ford F-250 with a 460 V8 was, I think, the most powerful vehicle I've owned. Pulled a 28' 5th wheel real well.

If you are pulling a LARGE TT or a 5th wheel a pickup is the way to go, I agree but I'm tired of the work and like a smaller trailer.

Perhaps the question should have been 'Why are there so few SUV towable TT's' being pulled by SUVs?

Pretty much the way I came around too. In fact we had a 1977 Ford 460 V8 pulling a 35'?? Layton 5th wheel ourselves. It was a very stout motor. In fact, we went through 2 trannys and one rear end rebuild before the old 460 had to be put out to pasture. It was a case sort of like we talk about now - way too much trailer for the drivetrain. But, that was back in the day when you worked on the farm, had one truck and pulled anything everything with it. You just backed up to "whatever it was", dropped it on the hitch, watched to see that the front tires didn't go up in the air or the back ones didn't pop then revved the engine and slipped the clutch till she started rolling.....then you were good to go. Ignorance is bliss!!

As far as why there are so few SUV towable TT's, I think there are several reasons. SUVs are changing. An SUV now is what used to be a mini SUV (Think original Tahoes/Expeditions/Ramcharger etc). The downsizing alone makes a significant impact on the ability to tow. As notanlines mentioned, they all have to have hundreds of pounds of options (creature comforts) added to keep people happy, the drivetrains are made for soccer moms, not heavy duty towing. All of these things combine to make a vehicle that has a very small towing window, and, very few folks tow with a small SUV. From the manufacturer standpoint it makes very little sense to make small, marginally profitable units in any number to try to fill a tiny niche market. As was mentioned, the pickup is far more versatile and capable. They used to be cheaper but no longer. So, if a person wants to actually tow they tend to get something made for it instead of trying to adapt something marginal. Some folks don't do this. For me, if there is a task at hand you get what is meant to do the job. Towing a trailer; HD pickup equipped like it needs to be for the trailer at hand. Flying low across the country in comfort to get from point A to B as quickly, and as fun as possible; a nice sports coupe. Trekking into the mountains to see the back trails, lakes etc; a nice, fully capable 4x4 SUV (not a crossover, AWD etc.) w/2 speed xfer case, at least 9.5" of ground clearance and the luxuries you want.

A person can try to make one vehicle be all things but in the end it will do nothing well except the original intended purpose. I think it is very difficult for an RV manufacturer to try to build to hit those niches. Anyway, we already have tear drops, Casita's etc......

[CaptnJohn]

I had a SUV tow vehicle once ~~ a Suburban 2500 with a 454. Did at great job at 6 mpg. I also towed with a 1974 Plymouth Fury that did a great job. Both of those had a full frame and heavy drive line. The SUVs built today are more like a mini van of yesterday, built for creature comfort and not for work. Yes, they will do the job on small light trailers. Anything more and one is fooling only themselves. My wife had an Explorer that I'd not have towed any more with it than the Escape she has now. Actually, the EB Escape has more torque than the Explorer had. Beast it sure as the devil was not.

[jaydubya1966]

I learn an awful lot from this forum. One of the issues I was most concerned about was my TV. I bought our first TT about three months ago and I towed with a GMC Acadia, which properly equipped can tow 5200lbs. I own a Passport Elite 19RB which has a dry weight of 4300 (and change) so my margin was less than 1,000 lbs. I did get myself weighed and I was about 500lbs short of my total GCWR (10,700). While it towed fine in the flats of Florida, my math told me I was really close to my limits (95%) and my DW and I were NOT in the Acadia during weigh in. I wondered how we would do if we encountered hills.

Long story made shorter, after reading this thread and others I decided that if I wanted to stay in RVing, and maybe upgrade down the road, I would be better off with a more capable TV. Today we bought a 2017 GMC Sierra 1500 Crew Cab Short Bed with the 5.3L Eco Tec engine. It is equipped for towing and has a 3.42 axle ratio. I verified before driving away and I can tow up to 9,400 lbs as equipped. My Passport 19RB will be much more easily towed and now I have room for some growth should we decide to do so. The wheel base along with the higher capacity is what swayed me (no pun intended). I felt that this presented a safer option. I loved my Acadia but feel like I made the right move for me. Thanks to all who participate in this forum...such a huge help to newer folks like us.

[Charby]

I was towing my Premier19fbpr with my 2012 Grand Cherokee 3.6 V6 which was fine without head winds and hills. It was rated for 5000lbs, and trailer empty was 4300lbs. I now have a 2016 Grand Cherokee with 5.7 Hemi, 8 speed tranny and 7200lb towing capacity, it purrs along at the same economy on the computer as the old V6 5 speeed. Many say 20 foot is the maximum for an SUV to pull for stability. I never tow with water as parks have it. We find it a perfect size trailer for the 2 of us, and the Jeep does everything I want it to do year round. I can fit it in the garage where a truck won't.

[linux3]

Originally Posted by Charby

I was towing my Premier19fbpr with my 2012 Grand Cherokee 3.6 V6 which was fine without head winds and hills. It was rated for 5000lbs, and trailer empty was 4300lbs. I know have 2016 Grand Cherokee with 5.7 Hemi, 8 speed tranny and 7200lb towing capacity, it purrs along at the same economy on the computer as the old V6 5 speeed. Many say 20 foot is the maximum for an SUV to pull for stability. I never tow with water as parks have it. We find it a perfect size trailer for the 2 of us, and the Jeep does everything I want it to do year round. I can fit it in the garage where a truck won't.

Well said.

[VoyagerI]

Ah…nothing worse than a newbie reopening a contentious thread…but here goes…

Something for all to consider…

Pulled a 6x12 enclosed motorcycle trailer with my ’04 Toyota Tacoma (V6) to the smoky mtns. Load was within rated capacities and the Taco pulled the load well enough. No visible or physical signs of vehicle distress.

Next trip was to the Rocky mtns. Before departing, decided to run a scan gauge II in my OBD II port to see what my real-time transmission temperatures were while under load. I was shocked to see the real tranny temps spiking routinely into unacceptable levels, all the while my dash gauges/lights read ‘ok”.

Moral of the story – it’s a system of systems. Verify ALL components are up to the task.

[Garyd1612]

Originally Posted by linux3

I pull our Passport 195RB with a Ford Explorer Sport.
After testing every brand and type of truck I bought the SUV.
I very seldom see another SUV pulling anything but a pop-up.
What's up with that?
The Sport model has the Ecoboost 3.5 and very firm suspension and works great as our TV.
OK, the price is equal to or greater than a F150 but better I think as a daily driver.

Only down side is the 18.6 gal tank. I get 11 ~ 12 MPG so I have to stop for gas about every 2 hours. My wife thinks that's a good thing.

Are there others out there and I'm just not seeing them?

I had a @015 Jeep Trailhawk with tow package (rated for 4500 lbs) and when I decided to purchase a 2019 Bullet Crossfire 1800RB (4400 lbs wet) I traded the SUV for a 2018 Toyota Tacoma TRD 4x4 also with tow package ( rated 6500 lbs.) I just didn't want to pull the guts out of the Jeep. So far Toyota is a very nice daily driver. That's why I didn't want to go with a full-size truck.